Thomas Hawkins – Editor, The Sunday Post (#32)

Episode 32 of the Money Made Human podcast features Thomas Hawkins, Editor of The Sunday Post.

Thomas has enjoyed a 24-year career in journalism, from sports journalism to digital journalism and everything in between. Today, he is Editor of The Sunday Post, one of Scotland's most iconic newspapers.

In this episode, host Gayle Lloyd speaks with Thomas about his career, the experiences that shaped his values, and the role journalism can play in making a positive difference.

Key topics in this episode include:

• Growing up in Belfast during the Troubles and their lasting impact
• The values and entrepreneurial spirit inspired by his parents
• His journey from the University of Glasgow to Editor of The Sunday Post
• The importance of highlighting issues such as the prevention of violence against women and girls
• The importance and challenges of pursuing the truth in modern journalism
• Thomas' hopes for the future of The Sunday Post and its ongoing projects

We hope you enjoy listening!

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to the Money Made Human podcast. It celebrates at its heart the work of credit unions and their vital role in enriching our lives and communities. Brought to you by First Class Credit Union. Each episode features insightful discussions revealing the meaningful impact that can be made through economic collaboration. Mostly it's a collection of compassionate conversations about navigating life and the individual journeys we take. Thank you so much for being with us. So many questions to ask you about you and about the Sunday Post. It's a kind of cultural, iconic newspaper. Um, and really want to explore a bit about news within the world just now as well, if that's okay. So, Thomas, tell us a bit about yourself. That's not a Scottish accent. Where's where where did you where did you um grow up?

SPEAKER_00 1:19

So I'm from Belfast, um very much still a Belfast boy. Um yeah, I I came over here for university, studied in Scotland, went back home. Um but funnily enough, it's it's a strange journey because I grew up in Belfast, always loved Scotland. I don't know why. I don't know. I think it's it was something in me, even as a like 13-year-old, I bought a Celtic connection. I bought a Scotland football shirt as a 13-year-old, yeah, and I was the only kid in Belfast with a Scotland football kit.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

What was driving that?

SPEAKER_00 1:47

I don't know, I have no idea. I probably just like the colours. I had like a little bit of tartan going on, yeah. Yeah, so I bought so had that, and my brothers used to have rid me. I have three brothers, used to absolutely destroy me for wearing my football kit, Scottish football, and a full tracksuit about a Scotland tracksuit for some reason. I love it, I know, so yeah, and then I went to university, came back home. Um bizarrely enough, I've ended up in a newspaper, the Sunday Post, that my granny bought in Belfast because it was a big seller in Belfast back in the 1950s and right through to the 80s and 90s, and we still print it in Belfast. So I think it was almost faith they ended up back in Scotland at the Sunday Post.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

Yeah, and what what made you want to go to university in Scotland? Was that mode of that that feeling?

SPEAKER_00 2:29

This is this is slightly embarrassing because when I applied for university, I literally opened the UCAST books. Me and my friends from school opened the UCAST book and were like drop their finger on the on just a random course. Well, it was like uh management. Uh so we'd all apply for this course in uh Glasgow University course, and I was I think a couple of us got like offers, but I was the only one that ended up going, so I arrived in Scotland on my own.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Um to the University of Glasgow, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

But we we did a course was early through um ER in IR, it was a Glasgow University um course. Um yeah, so I just dotten up and down to Glasgow. So I ended up in the middle of nowhere, really on my own.

SPEAKER_03 3:12

And now we've adopted you as a school.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Yes, and then when I then when I was in university and you went through that course, I think then it was just ingrained in me. I was always gonna come back. I did go home, and then I met a a girl from Scotland.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

A local girl.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Yeah, love it. So and then we came back.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

We love a love story. Yeah. Come back to that.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

Tell me about growing up in Belfast. Four did you say four brothers?

SPEAKER_00 3:35

How long have you got? Uh yeah, I grew up in Belfast. I mean a child of the troubles, really.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Um, so I I do occasionally when I'm chatting to my friends over here, tell them little snippets about what it was like because it was pretty unusual. You every day, for example, every day at school, uh, on the way to school, we had uh an army security checkpoint that we had to pass through. So we drove out of the house, drove down the road, and there was a a line of cars, and there was British Army chart checking all the cars underneath for bombs. There was a bomb at the bottom of my road um growing up, you know, army patrols coming through my street, people getting shot and killed. It was pretty grim, you know. Actually, it's very unusual growing up.

SPEAKER_03 4:19

It's hard to believe that in her lifetime that happened.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

It is even even as someone who grew up in it. Now I look back on it with that little bit of distance and think that was so odd. And you you I think everybody Do you become accustomed to it? You do, you and you you know what, you develop this map sixth sense for danger.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

Oh, do you?

SPEAKER_00 4:38

You become, I think it's I mean it's a form of PTSD, really. You look at every trouble for trouble. You can sniff out trouble like a shark can sniff out blood. You know, if I you know, I'll walk through the street and there'll be a bag lying in a bus station, and I'm like, bag up, you know, step back. And my girlfriend at the time when we were living in Belfast, she was like, What are you doing? My wife now, she's like, Why why are you so paranoid about things that are lying about unaccounted for? It's just inbuilt. So probably to this day, I don't really like going into big crowded spaces because of that fear of it's kind of trauma, isn't it? It absolutely is. And you know, my family, they might listen to this, but my family, the there's PTSD runs right through it because you're afraid of things, you know, they're just very cautious about certain things and doing certain talking to certain people. Um, yeah, it becomes a a cultural norm where you're very guarded about certain things and you're very cautious about where you go and what you do. So, yeah, it's very unusual, but then at the same time, it's just exactly like um the rest of Ireland and across the UK. You just we've got working class people, we've got houses that are exactly the same, look the same, streets that look the same, but there's this sort of another world where you everything's just normal and you go to the same schools, you drive the same cars, and then there's also all this stuff about shooting and bombing and it's so surreal in a way. It is surreal.

SPEAKER_03 6:03

We proudly serve credit union members in Northern Ireland through Royal Mail and and other organisations. What surprised me the most about visiting Belfast for the first time was seeing those gates that still close, I think, each at the end of each day. I find that very confronting in a way.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:23

And I wonder what's what's that like to live in a what is or what was a divided community?

SPEAKER_00 6:29

What it's like as a guy growing up, so I'm a Catholic growing up in a very Republican area, you don't really see the other side.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

You live in this segregated community. There's two two communities living side by side doing exactly the same thing, separated, you know, genetically by 0%, 0.000001%. So you're the same people. You've if you go back far enough, we're all probably related, and you're living side by side doing the same things, and it's very odd. So I used to go to the gym at the bottom of the Falls Road, and they have this beautiful, lovely, fancy gym, and across the road, across those gates you're talking about, is another beautiful leisure centre, exactly the same on the Shankle Road, paid for by the taxpayer. So you've two massive expensive things running side by side, and neither of them are probably full. So you have oddities like that. It's a very surreal experience, like you say. And I think what benefited me massively was I went to America when I was 10 um on an exchange trip. They took kids from Belfast, and we all went to America for the summer on our own without parents, which now that I have kids, think I think that's mental.

SPEAKER_03 7:38

Why was that allowed?

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Well, and you know, this is my personality. So the the the forms came around when we were in P6 or P5, something like that, and they were like, Who wants to go to America? And I was like, Yeah, I want to go. And I brought in my mom and she said, Absolutely not, you're not going to America on your own for six weeks, no chance.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

I forged her signature.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

No.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

And I gave it to the school.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

I must have been nine.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

No.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

And I signed dad's form, put it off, and then I got chosen. And I told mom I've got I've been chosen, and she's like, You can't have been chosen, so I didn't sign the form. Oh I had signed the form. So, anyway, it ended up an amazing experience because what happened was we went to America, we lived with a family, and at the weekends we would join up with other Belfast kids from the other side, and we realised I have more in common with you than I do with the people who are maybe empty. And it was really I mean, I really changed my outlook, and it you know, it was a fantastic experience.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

I love that so much. Just going back to your mum, yeah. Did you say you had was four brothers, yeah, four boys in the house? Yeah, they would have been worried about you guys? Yeah, do you know what? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

About when we were away?

SPEAKER_03 8:44

No, I mean just growing up in the troubles.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

Yeah, they must have been hugely worried.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:51

What did they instill in you in terms of values?

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Uh everything basically, but I know I know my dad was very cautious, you know, he's vet he was much more of a kind of worrier about safety and security. You can sure do don't go here, you know. And what was great, you know, was very family-oriented, I've a big close family, but then I've got 63 first cousins, which is insane. So, but we've all very close family uh tight unit, and and that sort of family element I think builds builds a feeling that you're all there to help each other. Yeah, so my dad was very much safety first, but for example, if you're going out a night out in Belfast, just doesn't matter where you are, what time of night, phone me and I'll come and get you. And I think that that instills something in you that you know you know what comes first is your family and your friends, yeah. And just I think just people. I think very like everywhere in Scotland, and I think that's why I've got that affinity, it's a very working class sort of mentality. It's like, look, we look after each other. Yeah, you know, if I've got a pound and you need a pound, here you go. You can have it. You take that and just sort yourself out because you know, we don't need to be rich and famous, but as long as we're we're all okay, you know, I think those values are very strong uh in our family.

SPEAKER_03 10:05

So and Belfast now, what an awesome city it is, isn't it? And vibrancy and culture, and do you get back there much?

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Yeah, I try to get back a lot, and I'm always telling all my Scottish friends you need to come to Belfast for a night out because growing up there, despite all that craziness I talked about earlier, what a great place to grow up, so much fun, you know. Maybe that was because of that sort of trauma. What happened is people from all the areas would go into the city centre in Belfast, and then when you're in a city centre, you you're not Catholic, you're not Protestant, you're just from Belfast. Uh-huh. And so you go out and you would party in the city centre, and you just meet the most amazing people, and it'd be so much fun. Um, so yeah, a great place to go out, and I always recommend my friends come over because it's a great city.

SPEAKER_03 10:51

Oh, it's it's so it's what a beautiful city it is. I wonder just just briefly going back to your parents, was there strands of things that they had taught you that informed your choices at university or future career?

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Definitely, you know, um I think just that what you're saying about the the values, all those values just help inform everything, really. But I said actually when I was just got the editor's job at the Sunday Post, one of the things that so my dad always went to work. So my my dad, we've got working class background, but we also have that entrepreneurial streak. So my dad and my uncle started a greengrocers in Belfast, which then turned into a supermarket. So they had a supermarket in Belfast and it came two supermarkets. Um, so there was that entrepreneurial side, and then they also started a boxing club, which now has you know has Olympic um medalists came through it, um world world title fighters and the Holy Trinity Boxing Club. So yeah, my dad'll be delighted. I give that a shout out. Um yes, so they got that entrepreneurial streak as well, and I think I think what that helps you do is go, you know, you can be community-minded and and out for your your friends while also being ambitious and looking to achieve you can do both, and my dad was very strong with don't like hide your light under a bushel and make sure you, you know, if you're allowed to shine, you know, shine because it lets I actually remember my mum pasting that I think it's attributed to Nelson Mandela, but it might not be him. My mum was very much she would get peak things at a newspaper, little thoughts or little things if she found interesting, cut them out and put them on the fridge.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

And one of them was uh don't be afraid to shine. By you shining, it allows other people to shine. Yeah, they see you and go, do you know what? If they're doing that, why I can do that. And I love that idea, you know. Yeah, you you know, you you don't have to be big and boastful, but if you're good at something, just say you're good at something and do and you know, showcase that so other people can be allowed to showcase their skills.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

I mean, you've just illustrated beautifully a a love story with parents and children and a community. Yeah, what what are your parents' names?

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Uh Thomas.

SPEAKER_03 13:01

Thomas?

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Yes, Thomas Hawkins and Gerlene. Um's a Ray, which must have some Scottish. I mean, my dad's family goes back to Scotland as well, uh, to Paisley.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

I wonder if that's where your affinity comes from.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

There must be something in there, you know, it all it all seeps in, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03 13:16

Oh yeah. And you so you end up coming to the University of Glasgow. What happens then? Did you want to get into journalism?

SPEAKER_00 13:25

When so I went back home, so it was management I was doing originally. I went back home, and uh what actually happened was I applied for a job in a hotel, and they said, right, here's your and I I had got the job, it was like a you know assistant manager at a hotel um in the centre of Belfast, and they said, right, this is what you're gonna be doing, you're gonna be working until midnight, and later some nights you're gonna work weekends, all these responsibilities like yeah, okay and do all that, and the pay is 11,000 pounds. And I thought, that's terrible. This is uh 2000 2000, 2001, and I thought, that's terrible wages for all that work. I'll be working late nights, and I thought, I don't fancy that at all. So I went back and I studied in MVQ level four, like a degree-level journalism course in Belfast, um, which then led to a job in newspapers in Belfast, so I worked in the Irish News, uh, which my dad had segued into journalism as well. Bizarrely, we were both studying at the same time at one point um in Belfast. Yeah, so um started working in Belfast, the Irish News, um, and then I went to the Belfast Telegraph.

SPEAKER_03 14:30

And what were you doing in that and stories?

SPEAKER_00 14:33

So I think that's helped me. This is what's helped me is I've had a career where I went, I started off in sport, sure, so all all things sport, and then I moved into digital journalism. I'm trying to get the timeline right, but it was at one point it was in digital journalism. We had an iPad edition of the Belfast Telegraph, so I was leading that, and then I came over here. I was worked in the business desk at one point in the Herald, and the Sunday Herald, just production desk. I've worked all over, so I've been in all different departments.

SPEAKER_03 15:04

Does that give you a really good grounding though?

SPEAKER_00 15:06

It does, it really does. I mean, all the all the words y stuff seeps in by osmosis, and then you've got all the production side where you understand deadlines, you understand costs and the business side of it, the business side of it, yeah, and then you've got you know you understand the importance of sport, uh especially in a country like Scotland where everyone's mad for sport, just like in Ireland. Um, so yeah, it does, it helps, it helps that, and yeah, and so I've I've been around at the right times, and you know, with all careers you're you're in the right place at the right time when you take these steps up, but I think having that ground had definitely helped as well.

SPEAKER_03 15:40

Is it easier to write about something you love?

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 15:45

If you have a passion for it.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Do you know? I think when you I all all of our writers will say this when you write a lot, you can it's a bit like breathing. You just you can write. It and it just be the best thing is just to get one of the one of our reporters, Russell, Black Sox great, you know, veteran writer, he just says, if you need to write something, just sit down and write it. Your fingers will do the do the work before you breathe kicked down. Yeah, it just it just yeah. Yeah, you almost have to switch off.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

You have you then found your way to becoming the editor of the Sunday Post, which for for any of our members listening, it's an iconic Sunday newspaper. Yeah, it features uh two cartoon strips called Urwilly and the Brunes, iconic Scottish stories. Um, but it goes back how how old is it, The Sunday Post?

SPEAKER_00 16:36

19. I'm gonna get this wrong, but I think it's in 1914. It started off as a Saturday post.

SPEAKER_03 16:42

So it's over a hundred years old?

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Yeah, because it started off as the the post and the idea of the post was to inform people uh of what was happening in the war, uh the first world war. So basically there's you know a huge desire to get more information back from the front lines, and then at some point it became the Sunday Post, they wanted uh even more news, um, so it transformed into the Sunday Post. Uh and yeah, so it's it's been around since I think it's 1914, it's the very first edition. Uh and it and in 1930, so we're in the 90th anniversary of the Ur William the Brunes, which you mentioned. So 90 years ago, Dudley D. Watkins, the artist, and R.D. Lowe was the editor at the time, came up with those characters. They just sketched them out on little napkins about at you know at lunch and um little like uh notebooks, and they came up with these ideas and they have been around ever since. They were loved instantly.

SPEAKER_03 17:34

And one's the story of a little Scottish boy, yeah, and one's the story of a Scottish family with lots of different characters within it. Yeah, but they've they've been part of Scottish tradition now for for you're saying 90 years.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

90 years, and everyone you speak to, you talks talk about working on the Sunday Post, the first thing they'll say is the Bruins and our Willie. Uh and I mean it is it's cultural shorthand for Scotland. It's it's like you know, Iron Brew and Colox tea cakes, it's just in that bracket. You know, if we all editors will have sections in their paper where it's like sacrosanct, you can't touch that. If we do anything with the Bruins and our Willie, even even writers or uh readers will write in and say, I don't really like that drawing this week. You know, it doesn't look like Urwilly, that's not the Urwilly I know. So they get very, very passionate about it, but they absolutely love it. We just had a 90th anniversary supplement, and the amount of emails, letters, phone calls we had about it, it was incredible. People still love it.

SPEAKER_03 18:33

Thomas, I'm even thinking here of the nostalgia of it. Yeah, I remember getting up on a Sunday morning, we get the Sunday post. My mum would put that that piece of the paper on the kitchen table. Yeah, I'd have French toast and I'd be reading what Urwilly was doing.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Well, my first job was my first thing to do as editor. So June last year, I was like, I'm bringing back the fun section because we had a uh puzzles and comics section, but I wanted to recreate exactly what you just described. You take your your your newspapers out, and we know that you know the pressures newspapers under, but still I wanted if your grandparents are buying it and your parents are buying it, you take out the fun section, you give it to the kids. And that was the first thing I did. So we've recreated that old style feel. You still get all the puzzles that we have on all those classic comics, but you can pull it out and give it to the kids.

SPEAKER_03 19:21

And is that is that your first editorial position, your first opportunity to be the editor?

SPEAKER_00 19:27

Yeah, so I was uh assistant editor for the Sunday Post. Uh, and I mean the two jobs are very similar because when the editor's away, you're doing sure, you're doing the same job. So massive crossover, really, it's just the same job, only with a slightly different title. Uh but yeah, there's the then there's more to it now as an editor. You've got marketing and advertising and board meetings and all that.

SPEAKER_03 19:50

I just wondered if you felt the the weight of responsibility of that role g given it's a historic paper. It do you do you feel like a custodian of that?

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Absolutely, absolutely. That you know, that history and yeah maintaining and looking after those comics, especially. I think they're they're such an important brand. But so the answer is yes, I do, but also because I've had such a long I've been I've been in journalism for 24 years, so it feels like forever, and it becomes just something you do. So it's a it's a long time, so it but you know the pressure is there, absolutely it is, but it also I'm confident that I can handle it because I've been around, I've seen it. I guess I've seen good, I've seen showcasing of good editors, and I've seen the bad as well. So I kind of think I know what not to do.

SPEAKER_03 20:41

Yeah, yeah. And you've really tried to I guess move that forward in terms of a modern agenda as well.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:51

And and just this year, something that connected us, your one of your front covers was about the prevention of violence against women and girls. Your I think your chief reporter, Marine Scott, had put a piece together and we just found it so moving and meaningful and got in touch with you about it. But I wondered if you could explain why issues like that are important to a newspaper.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Well, you know, I'll talk about myself personally. From probably all that stuff we talk about are family values. One of the things I thought when I got into journalism was like, I want to make a difference. And when you're on the lower echelons of journalism, it's hard to feel like you're making a difference. So when I became full editor, one of the things that made me feel great was like I can actually make a difference, and you can see it every single day in every story of the paper. So when Marion came to me and said, Look, I've got these latest figures, and it's something like 200 women have been killed by men in the last five years, I think the the data was. It really struck me and I thought we need to do something about this. Sadly, we are As journalists deal with this stuff every week, and we've seen it a time and again, and you do become slightly desensitized to it. But when she put these numbers together, I thought that is appalling. And one of the things I want to do was make a difference. It might sound flippant, but I want to make misogyny and sexism socially unacceptable, just in the same way that you can't light up a cigarette in the restaurant. People would say, by the way, you can't do that. The same way that So it's just a norm. It's just a norm. So if someone makes a misogynistic joke or they say something slightly sexist, you say, Hold on a second, you can't say that. So that was the genesis of my that was the sort of kernel of my beliefs. Marian brings this story to me, and as soon as she told me it, I thought, I know exactly what I'm gonna do. Because I've got 20 odd years of journalism experience, I thought I know what would make an impact. It's getting every single one of those women, as many as we can, and putting their pictures on the front page. Now that was my immediate thought. So when Marion starts putting the story together and we start doing the production side of it and trying to find all those pictures, what I didn't expect was that when I read the story, to put it see it all put together, we do it and then read each one of their stories, and it really hit me like a sledger, sledgehammer because I thought, these are mothers, sisters, sisters, grandparents. And all and even when I'm reading and I know the whole story, I'm reading and going, This woman's no longer here. And we're reading someone about she's 40 and she's no longer alive because of the actions of her partner most of the time, or someone that's supposed to love her, exactly that. And you're like someone who's meant to look after and be the rock in their life, has ended their life, and it just really hit me. So that was the whole thought process behind it. And just like you, we had a huge amount of um reaction to it, lots of letters, lots of phone calls. People just thought this is a poll, and hopefully that was the point of it, make a change.

SPEAKER_03 23:50

Oh, it was, you know, I find it moving talking about it here, but it it did make an impact, and we're so grateful to the Sunday Post. You came along to our Money Made Human Awards and you presented an award to Scottish Women's Aid, who are in this territory every day trying to help survivors, and uh it was such a such a moving tribute. But I guess we're hopeful that we don't leave it there, we don't leave the story there, and we perhaps do more work on that together than with other parties as we go forward. And I is is that the is that the real impact of a newspaper?

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Absolutely. I think that's the key of you know, journalism is so important, and you talked at the very start about um world events, you know, without newspapers, you know, everything's now social media. It comes through social media, and there's so much misinformation out there. The key, the strength of a newspaper is that everything that comes through a newspaper now, people won't, and my friends, you know, wind me up about this. They're like, well, a newspaper isn't the you know the beacon of truth. But and a newspaper goes through multiple layers of checking, it goes from the reporter to the desk head to the editor, back down to the sub-editors, revised subs and back to the editor eventually. So you've got multiple layers of people saying, Hold on, that's not right, whereas social media and blogs and people who are willfully trying to mislead us can just be one voice. But to your point, is um about making that change and what happens next. One of the things that struck me, and I didn't know this at the time when we published that story, um, was that we have 200 women who've been killed um in domestic abuse type of scenarios. But we've probably got an equal amount of women who kill them die by suicide on the back of domestic abuse. And we just had that case recently in Dundee where Lee Milne had basically driven his wife to suicide. So it's almost equal numbers. So for if for 500 women who have died by homicide, probably have equal or roughly the same amount who die by suicide.

SPEAKER_03 25:49

Because for those women, life becomes unlivable in the situation and they can't see a way out.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 25:55

It's it's it's heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

It's terrifying. You know that those numbers are they're awful, they're horrifying, but it's happening every single day. And we report on it every single day. And I think that was the part in bringing it all together and say, look, I know we keep reporting on this every day, but hold on a second, people, wake up and look at the numbers. If you pull them, pull them together and look at those people and those faces, this is this is an epidemic, and we need to do something about it.

SPEAKER_03 26:19

And it's so powerful that you're using that influence to have an impact and make a difference. What what are your other hopes for the Sunday Post as you go forward?

SPEAKER_00 26:29

You know, just in the same way that that that happens, or we've got an amazing reporting team, writing team who are constantly, they've each got their little passions, and that's the beauty of a newspaper as well. You've got all this broad range of skilled people who've all got passions that they want to make a difference on. And I just, for me as an editor, I just think I am the vehicle.

SPEAKER_03 26:50

Are you the conductor?

SPEAKER_00 26:52

Absolutely. And I decided, you know what, you're really passionate about this, and I think it's a good idea, let's go and do it. So, everything from revitalizing our high streets, we've got a big campaign coming that's going to be shared with the courier and the PJ um to these matters, to infrastructure, um, our health, NHS, schools, you know, there's so many things that we want to help fix. And it can be overwhelming at times because you think how can you fix all this stuff? But if we can But you're trying. Yeah, and we can make a foothold in every single one and then let people, you know, push that forward as well. That's the idea.

SPEAKER_03 27:28

What more can we do to support traditional newspapers? How do we how do we help you? Is it is it buying the hard copy newspaper? Is it following you on social media?

SPEAKER_00 27:40

Is it both all of those things really? I mean, and the thing is, nobody wants to be preached to and say you need to buy a newspaper. But I think one of the biggest difficulties difficulties is the sort of genies out of the bottle where people expect, and I do as well, free, free journalism. But we're seeing now what happens when that, when that what what comes home to roost is that free journalism ends up with everyone just we've got blogs that aren't really fact-checked. We've got some great bloggers doing great things, we also have lots of misinformation, and we have bad actors out there who want to mislead us, purposefully, purposefully misleading us. You know, we've got bots from Russia, China, you know, I'm sure the Americans and in the UK are doing it as well, but we've got people out there willfully misleading, misleading us, and people with bad intentions. So I think subscribing to just keep fighting, keep fighting, and and you know, the best thing you could do is subscribe to a newspaper, buy a copy of a newspaper, because at the end of the day, if we don't have those institutions fighting the fight, because we're all just people, just like everyone else, and we we we look at the issues out there and we think that needs to be fixed. If you don't have those, then corruption goes off the scale. Um, you know, just it it's a it's a horrible bleak dystopian future without newspapers and journalists.

SPEAKER_03 28:57

I guess it's the the truth tellers of society we really need that influence.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Absolutely, and and crucially they're backed by a team of people who aren't just saying, yes, that's fine, they're challenging each each story that goes through a newspaper gets challenged from every direction before it gets into print. Now, we won't always get it right, but we'll at least have the idea of like before it goes in print, we're saying, well, what are the flaws of that story and what's the other side of that story that you're not telling us? And so we do inspect it where you know that that's the failure of maybe social media.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

I wanted to ask you globally, I think we've all seen in the news recently where we can have leaders, world leaders, challenging members of the press in derogatory fashion just because they're bringing truth to power. And I wondered firstly, what do you think about that? Is is that a is there a weakness there? But also does that illustrate the importance of keep telling the truth?

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Yeah, and to be resilient in that. One of the things about working in a newspaper so long, you realize that the truth is subjective almost outside of that's black and that's white, trying to say tell an objective truth or writing a story because it becomes very complicated very quickly in a true way is extremely difficult. So, so my truth might be different to your truth, and so you know, I guess it comes back to your fundamental values, right? So, what do you set as a value for your paper and you go jump from that basis? But to your point about the world leaders sort of challenging those outlets, I understand it because you you have just like you have biased actors in social media and blogs, etc. You do also have newspapers who are set out to be um party political, if you like. So you can see how that develops and the world has become more polarized, where those traditional sort of centres of labor and the conservatives, if you're talking about political parties, are no longer the the powerhouses they once were. And you should have you have very divisive um political parties. So I understand where it comes from, but it is dangerous, and it and it makes people even friends of mine who will challenge me and say newspapers are full of lies, which is not the case. The BBC, people people believe the BBC is full of lies. It's it's not the case, and I think that there's a lot of conspiracy theories out there about mainstream media, but mainstream media, although it does get things wrong, is much more robust at trying to get to an object uh subjective truth or an objective truth than maybe just one person on their own.

SPEAKER_03 31:37

So by and large, there's lots of checks and balances before you publish.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:42

So we we must keep fighting for our truth tellers.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I it it becomes very complicated because I know I could tell someone that you know here mainstream media is really good and they will point to countless examples where it failed. That is true. But the alternative to that but the majority, yeah, absolutely, and the alternative to that is you have um uh a very dystopian world where it's almost like dictatorial, where you have someone saying this is the truth, and you have almost like messiah-like figures dictating to people.

SPEAKER_03 32:14

And I think that's really dangerous, especially if they go unchallenged.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 32:19

I just wondered, just going back to your parents and thinking about that powerful story that you you ran and led with about the the prevention of violence uh to women and girls. What would your parents think about that in terms of looking at it through your lens? Would they be proud of you?

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Uh absolutely, you know. Uh that I think you said it, but I I have a very loving relationship with all my family and my parents, you know, particularly. They are very proud of everything, you know, and they're all proud of all of my brothers, what we've all achieved. Um but you know, just a little story. My I spoke to my mum recently about it, and she said that she was sitting at home with one night in Belfast. My dad would go out to the pub, as men, uh uh, and so she got a phone call from like a creep, basically on the phone saying, 'I'm gonna come to your house.' Your baby. And I've got your husband, I've kidnapped him. Um, and this is before mobile phones. So she's in the house with three young kids at the time. And then a birth friend with the troubles as well, all that stuff, and uh yeah, so she she's acutely aware of that type of horrible fear, misogynistic, sexist. The guy, nothing ever came to it. Uh, and there was someone um arrested in the weeks after that on the way to someone else, so sort of prank caller, if you like, but with no dreadful sexual undertones, you know. So she is acutely aware of that issue. I think all women are because you grow up in a world where you've unfortunately got horrible, misogynisting, and sexist people out there. So, yeah, she's really proud and she realizes that there's there's a work to be done there, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:55

And I guess we'll be proud of your influence over that.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I would say I hope so, but I know so because my dad, you know, tells me all the time. Oh, does he? Yeah, yeah. He's proudly shows off my work to anyone who loves it.

SPEAKER_03 34:08

This is my boy.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:10

I love that. And in the in the next few months, um, as we head out 2026, is there anything that you're hopeful about? Anything that you're you're thinking this will be uh something really important for the Sunday Post?

SPEAKER_00 34:25

I've got so many ideas. Um I'm trying to think of one off the top of my head. We've got lots of we've got lots of projects planned. Um and we've got lots the next one is like I said about a little bit earlier, saving our high streets. The high streets are in uh you know a tough position right now, and it goes back to that. Um it's a bit like the online debate. Everything's online now for shopping and stuff, and then high streets are being forgotten. And so you go down to most high streets. I I'm up um in Larbert, and so you know, going to Falkirk, and you've got bookies, vape shops, barbers, and you know, those kind of cash converter type shops, and it feels like the heart has been ripped out of them. Yeah, so that that's we've got a big campaign on trying to um put the heart back into our communities, and perhaps that's something credit unions could help with as well. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 35:11

Yeah, you know, as as part of a community, yeah, absolutely. So, Thomas, we've got some quick questions to finish. Yeah, now our team have written these, we do these at the end of every podcast. So it's a quick fire round, and I don't know if some of them will be work-related and some will be life.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 35:29

Um, but I think some great questions. This is a brilliant first question. What is the most inspiring story you've ever reported on?

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Inspiring story. Do you know what what immediately I'll just come with what the thing that comes straight into my mind? So, our not past edited one before, Jim Wilson, powerhouse of um media and journalism. He and Marion was involved in it as well. So you'll speak to Marion, she will could give you the whole story about it. But Emma Caldwell, sex worker, she was murdered uh outside Glasgow, and the police investigated it, and they focused on a bunch of Turkish guys that they thought were bang on for this murder. It turned out that the murderer was right in front of them, they'd interviewed him, uh, but he he never he was never um investigated fully. So Jim Wilson made it his life's mission to get this guy back in front of a judge because we we did he did stories first in the Sunday Meal and then the Sunday Post that said this guy needs to be looked at again. Something like eight or nine years passed before that guy was brought back into court, and it turns out, yes, shock shock hours. So, this just for background, Ian Packer had admitted taking Emma Caldwell and other sex workers to this very remote spot. And he was like, Oh, yeah, I used to come here. Um and and it just so happened, that's where Emma Caldwell was dumped, her body was left, murdered and dumped in that exact isolated spot. But the police for some reason didn't investigate that. Jim Wilson held the police's feet to the fire for many, many years until they went, okay, let's investigate him. Turns out he he actually did do it and was charged, arrested, and is now in jail where he should be. Um so that I mean, as far as newspapers goes, it's an inspirational thing because he uh he just didn't let go of the truth until that guy was behind bars.

SPEAKER_03 37:22

It's that influence and impact, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 37:24

Absolutely. And that's what newspapers can do, really.

SPEAKER_03 37:26

And what that's brought to, I guess, Emma's family. Absolutely. The peacefulness that that that might bring.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:34

Are you an early morning reporter or a last-minute night owl?

SPEAKER_00 37:39

Do you know I used to be last-minute night night owl, absolutely all all day long. Um, stay up late. Uh that was just me and get up late. But and then I had kids. And now I'm up every morning, yeah, bright and early. Maybe my wife might disagree with that, but I always get up in the morning, so I'm much I have appreciated mornings now.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Get it done quickly.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

My wife's a total morning person, she's always up. Six o'clock in the morning, she's awake, and I'm like, Can you please go back to bed? But yeah, very much mourning now.

SPEAKER_03 38:10

What stories do you think don't get enough attention in Scotland?

SPEAKER_00 38:15

Stories don't get enough attention. Um good question. Uh it's hard to know. I I I live and breathe newspapers, so I kind of see it all. Um get enough attention. Maybe maybe uh this is maybe a slightly boring answer, but stuff like people who can't get their money back from big organizations and that sort of daily frustration of dealing with big corporate bodies who then outsource their work to a call centre somewhere. I find that we used to have a great column called The Raw Deal, and it was inundated with people saying, I can't get my money back for these flights, or I can't get through to the council. That sort of daily frustration. Do you know they're really time consuming as a journalist to get involved in? So that probably I wish there was more of that in our newspaper, which you know, with the economy and with our newspapers are it's difficult to dedicate that the resource that it needs for that type of thing.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

It's a great thought though. It's frustrating for people.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:19

What's been a defining moment of your journalism career so far?

SPEAKER_00 39:24

You know what was great was working during the independence referendum. And so I worked with the Sunday Post, which then came out in support of independence, and it was fantastic to see how that worked in the machination of a newspaper, you know, the the the groundswell of uh independence support and how that we end up doubling our sales overnight, really, which doesn't happen in newspapers, and it certainly doesn't happen anymore. Um, so that was really informative. Um, Richard Walker was the editor and this mercurial genius of an editor, uh, and he had spotted something really early on that there was a lot of people, so pro and against independence, and he said it's not about that. People need an independence supporting newspaper, so it was really interesting to be part of that.

SPEAKER_03 40:12

Um to see the impact that had on growth.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:16

Two last questions then. What are you reading, watching, or listening to right now?

SPEAKER_00 40:22

I read everything, and one of my if if anyone can take this away and pass it on to their kids is get your kids reading, and it doesn't matter what it is. I am reading a book called The Shetland Bus, which is about the Second World War um operation where they shipped people, resistance fighters over to Norway, Nazi-occupied Norway, and and resistance fighters back out. So that's what I'm reading now right now. But I read all the time, just everything and everything. Everything and everything I love love reading.

SPEAKER_03 40:49

Listening to music.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

Listening to, I am listening to football podcasts at the minute. Okay and Money Made Human, which you just listened to. Paul Sweetie, which was very good. Thank you. Paul Sweeney, you know, I and we deal with Paul a lot, and I've never actually spoken to him, but I'm actually I made a point of after listening. I thought I'm gonna reach out to him because he sounded like a nice guy.

SPEAKER_03 41:07

And um social activism, so you're you're a peer. Exactly. You're a peer. Yeah. Last question what's your best life advice?

SPEAKER_00 41:16

Best life advice, probably a bit like that. Read, get everyone reading, because I think the more we can be informed about stuff. So you read a book and you think, well, I'm just it's just for fun, and it's you know, it can be checklet, it can be um you know, a true crime, or it can be like murder detective stuff. It all helps your understanding, and I think the more people are informed, because I I I you know go out and play football and I play with people, and I think maybe you need to be a bit more informed about what's happening in the world, and I think that comes from reading because you'll they'll say stuff about immigration, and I think you have no idea of the truth. There's no point even arguing with sometimes, you know. So get yourself reading, whatever it is, read everything and anything. Read everything.

SPEAKER_03 41:57

Yeah, well, listen, Thomas, it was a pleasure to speak with you today. We're so grateful to have you for our members. Go look at the Sunday Post Scottish iconic newspaper, and thank you so much for being with us, Thomas Hopkins. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the Money Made Human podcast. We're grateful to spend time with you and hope you enjoyed it. If you want to join a credit union, choose us with love. Until the next time, first class credit union.