Jock Brown – Scottish Football Commentator and Former Celtic General Manager (#30)

Episode 30 of the Money Made Human podcast features Jock Brown, Scottish football commentator and former General Manager of Celtic Football Club.

Jock has enjoyed a remarkable career spanning law, broadcasting and Scottish football. After studying law at Cambridge, he built a successful legal career while also becoming one of Scotland’s best-known football commentators, before later serving as General Manager of Celtic.

Host Gayle Lloyd speaks with Jock about his childhood and upbringing, his journey into football commentary, and his behind-the-scenes experiences at Celtic. Jock also reflects on dealing with press attention and remembers his late brother, former Scotland manager Craig Brown.

Key topics include:

•  Jock’s childhood, upbringing and education 
•  His career in law and journey into broadcasting 
•  Life as a football commentator 
•  His time as General Manager of Celtic 
•  His involvement with Children’s University Scotland 
•  Remembering his brother, Craig 

We hope you enjoy listening!

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the Money Made Human podcast. It celebrates at its heart the work of credit unions and their vital role in enriching our lives and communities brought to you by First Class Credit Union. Each episode features insightful discussions revealing the meaningful impact that can be made through economic collaboration. Mostly it's a collection of compassionate conversations about navigating life and the individual journeys we take. Welcome to Money Made Human, a podcast by First Class Credit Union. We're delighted today to be joined by a special guest, a television broadcaster, football commentator, lawyer, and brother of the late creep and former Scotland manager. Welcome everyone, John. So nice to have you with us. Thank you for being here. Now we have so many questions for you. Can't wait to talk to you about lots of different bits and pieces. But we have something in common. We went to the same school.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Not at the same time. But we went to the same school in Hamilton. Yes. So what was your what was you not bringing like in Hamilton?

SPEAKER_03 1:14

Well I arrived in Hamilton. I was supposed to be going to school in Rutherland, would you believe?

SPEAKER_02 1:19

No.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

We just need our office. Absolutely. And uh just as that was all about to happen, I had been to the school to see it at the brand new school, I think. Calderwood primary, was it something like that? I can't remember. Um I was five years old, uh, and just at that time my father and mother decided to move home and they moved to Hamilton. So that summer we moved to Hamilton 1951. Uh, and uh I then went to St John's primary. So the first schooling was there. But I should have been here in Northern.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

That's so funny. And then you've got happy memories of growing up in Hamilton, haven't you? In terms of yeah, you had is it two brothers you had?

SPEAKER_03 2:04

Two older brothers, yes. I'm the youngest of three, yes, that's right. Craig was the eldest, um, and the respectable one was Bob in the middle. Is that right? He's a minister. It's a minister. Well he's now retired minister, yeah. Uh oh.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

And I remember you telling me once that you used to enjoy playing football in the garden, because you weren't far from the school in Hamilton Grammar that you went on to go. Or Hamilton Academy at the end.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

Hamilton Academy in my day, but uh the the house we lived in was at the end of Watser Street, which is right on the railway. And there was a patch of ground which is actually owned by the railway, right at the side of our house. Uh, and my father levelled it out and made it into an area where we could play football in it, and no one objected. Uh so uh the three of us played there constantly, of course, any pals would come and join us. So uh and we had a gable wall there, so you could kick the ball if you're on your own, you kick the ball against that gable wall and practice all day long if you wanted. Uh that was that was where the house was.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

And was that your was that a kind of first love of football at that point? Did you grow up loving football?

SPEAKER_03 3:11

Yes, I can't remember not but uh not being a big factor in my life uh because my father's a professional player.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Oh, was he?

SPEAKER_03 3:18

Yeah, my grandfather was uh was a very good player too, he played for Queen's Park way back, he was amateur, but he played for Queen's Park. Oh wow my father played for various teams uh as a professional.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Who did your dad play for?

SPEAKER_03 3:31

Um he started at Queen's Park, he played for Hamilton Eckeys for a short time, he was then at Partick Thistle, and then the war broke out. When the war broke out, he was he went down to to Cosford near Wolverhampton. And in those days, players, professional players, would play for the club close to where they were based. Okay. So you have Stanley Matthews up here playing for teams in Scotland, uh, and my father played for Wolverhampton Wanderers when he was down there. Uh and then came back, he had one season at uh King's Park, which is now Stilling Albion, uh, and that took him to about 35-36 when he retired.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

What position did your dad play?

SPEAKER_03 4:17

I understand he played either right back or right half in the old days.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Okay, so in defence.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Aye, defender.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

And was he tall like you?

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Yeah, 5'10.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

Okay. What about for your mum growing up in a house filled with boys, football focused, professional footballer husband? Uh what what was your mum like? What did she bring to the home?

SPEAKER_03 4:40

Everything. Did she? I would say so, yeah. I mean, she was a star really of the of the home. Was she? Um and of course, she got involved and she got interested in all of that. So, you know, she would Craig played um he played for Dundee when they won the league championship in 1961 too. Um and she was every match. She was all the games. Oh, was she? She had to had to join us rather, and you know, it was other than that, you know, so same as well, all golfers, and she took up golf quite late in her life. Oh, did she? To join the uh to join the whole thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

Oh brilliant. What was your parents' names, Joe?

SPEAKER_03 5:18

My father was Hugh Brown and my mother was Margaret.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_03 5:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

What um I I've I've had the privilege of getting to know you over the last few years, and you're a man of immense values and integrity, and I wonder, did that creep into your psyche from childhood? Did that come from your parents?

SPEAKER_03 5:41

Yes. It did. I would I would say so, yes. Uh my father particularly. My father was a very demanding man, he was very strict. Um I was a friend of him actually. You know, it was he was he was quite a forceful character, but he did instill values and standards and things of that kind. Um, and if he fell shorter than me, he was right on you, you know, and he was he was too tough actually.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

Was he? Uh did that change the way you were as a father?

SPEAKER_03 6:13

And influenced it without question. Uh the difference for me was I had only daughters. And he had only sons. So he was quite tough. So that's a different dynamic. And daughters are a different dynamic, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

And did your mum balance that out? Did was your mum did your mum balance some?

SPEAKER_03 6:32

To some extent, yes, to some extent. Not entirely, but to some extent. She was pretty tough too. What? Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

As as they would say locally, we're tough folk in Lanarkshire.

SPEAKER_03 6:42

Well, well, neither of them came from Lanarkshire, but but they were they were tough folk, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

They were they were. What about your journey through school then? You went to Hamilton Academy and you did you did actually really well because you went to one of the most prominent universities in the UK.

SPEAKER_03 7:02

Yeah, I did, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

You went on to Cambridge?

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Yeah, it was that was a that was a strange thing because I was actually scheduled to go to Glasgow. I I was I was in Glasgow at a place at Glasgow, um, and uh very, very last minute for the deadline for applications. It was a former student of my father's. My father was a principal PE at Jordan Hill College, eventually. That was his final job. And one of his students had gone to do a postgrad course at Cambridge. And when my father was at Jordan Hill, he took the football team at Jordan Hill. Okay. Uh, and it and it was a very successful amateur team, um, and he he drove it. This guy played in that team, and as a small boy, I used to go and watch a lot of the games. The main reason was at Jordan Hill had the best gymnasium in the country, probably. So I was able to take a pal with me. I'd go with my father to watch them play on a Saturday afternoon, but we have to be there very early. So the two of us would be in the gym and all the facilities. It'd be great. And then we watch the game, and of course, I'm I'm talking about being 12, something like that. So the players got to know you. Archie McPherson played in that team.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

A fellow football commentator?

SPEAKER_03 8:23

And that's that was how I I he got me into the business, and it was because I got to know him then. No as a wee boy, watched them play.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Oh my goodness. Um I want to come back to that.

SPEAKER_03 8:33

Yeah, so he was in the team, but the guy who played Centre Fall was a star man, was a great player. He went to George to Cambridge in a post grad course. Um, and then he would meet my father from time to time, and he kept asking for me, how's George doing? How's he getting on? And uh my father would tell him what I was doing. Uh and at one occasion he said to him, How's he doing at school? Is he very good at school? And he's doing quite well. Get him to Cambridge. You know what? My father said to me, Bob Carillo says you should apply for Cambridge. You know, and I said, Don't be silly, what are you talking about? After going to Glasgow, it's all sorted. And uh next thing he produced the application forms.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Your dad?

SPEAKER_03 9:16

Well, the the other guy gave them to my father. Okay. The application forms. And my father said to me one September weekend, I was gonna go to a party somewhere, and he said, they've got to be in by tomorrow. I said, I'm going to a party, I'm not bothered with that, I'll waste my time anyway. He filled the forms up.

unknown 9:36

Daddy.

SPEAKER_03 9:37

When I came back, I had to sign them. Well, look, just check it and sign it. And that's what that's what happened, and I thought, that's that finished. And then suddenly I got this invitation to go for interview. Go to Cambridge for interview.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

And was that to do law? Did you pick law? Yes, I was to do law, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:54

So the next thing I've known, I've got this letter saying, and writing for interview for two days of interviews at Cambridge. And it was the first time in my life I flew. Is that right? I'd never flown in my life, and uh that was right. How do you get to Cambridge? How do you get there? Uh-huh. And I worked out you fly to Heathrow, Abbott's Inch as it was then in those days, to uh Heathrow and then get from Heathrow to Cambridge, and I had no idea how you do that, and then worked out that was a real chore, it took a long time. Uh, and then I get to I got to Cambridge, I had two days in Cambridge being interviewed by all sorts of people, and I was so relaxed, I can't tell you because there was no chance of getting in, I wasted my time, you know. So I wanted to have a bit of fun, a bit of fun. So I did all these interviews with without the slightest nerve in me because it was a waste of time. I knew that as I thought blow me the give me a place.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

And you got a place? Yeah. How did you feel being away from home? That would have been your first spell away from home. I was very difficult. What was it?

SPEAKER_03 10:52

I was very homesick for a while, yeah. Difficult.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

But you persevered with that?

SPEAKER_03 10:56

Well, you you had to persevere, aye. And you couldn't, there was no chance of getting back, and there was no communication either. Of course. You had to write letters to communicate. Because it you couldn't hit a phone. There was no mobiles. No mob, no, no, no. I think no internet, nothing. So you you know that you you would have if if you arranged a it'd be write a letter and say I'll phone you this phone box at a certain time, maybe that was I mean, it was hopeless.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

You said your dad, your dad was tough as you were you you know, growing up. How did he feel about you going to Cambridge? Was that a proud moment for him?

SPEAKER_03 11:31

Well, you know, I don't know. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 11:34

Um because he was the one that made it happen, if you like, in terms of the application and going there. Uh but once I got there, it really didn't show a lot of interest, you know. It was quite it was quite strange. And the the the other thing that's funny about it was what saved my life at Cambridge when I got there as a a a 18-year-old homesick boy was football because I was I was put in the university team very quickly. Uh and that meant that was I went there in October and I played in the trials for the university, got injured in the trial, three weeks out from there, and then got back to fitness and uh suddenly found I was in a team. So I played the end of October, I played my first game against the Royal Navy, I remember. And uh on December 5th I played at Wembley against Oswald. Uh and that was in no time really. And that transformed everything there.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

Did that give you a friendship group?

SPEAKER_03 12:47

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, huge, yeah. So I played there all the time. Um that made a huge difference.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

What was your hope from going to Cambridge? You wanted to study law, become a lawyer?

SPEAKER_03 12:58

I hadn't thought that out, I wasn't sure of that. Okay. No, I wasn't sure because another thing at Cambridge that they don't pressure you to become a lawyer if you're re if you're doing law.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 13:08

And that it's expected. If you go to Glasgow University to do law, they expect you to have a legal career. But at Cambridge they don't. It's wide open. So uh I came to the conclusion, well, I I didn't think I'd stay in England, and it was English law I was doing, so I just use it as a general degree basically at that time.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

And so did that mean you had to come back to Scotland and do further education to transfer to the Scottish system?

SPEAKER_03 13:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

And where did you do that, Jock?

SPEAKER_03 13:36

I did that, no, I did that as soon as I did no, I came back, yeah, I became a journalist. The first job I got was a journalist, yeah, after I left uh university. Uh and I went to the Glasgow Herald, which I hated. It was awful. And it lasted about three or four months.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

What kind of reporting were you doing?

SPEAKER_03 13:54

I was a news sub-editor at the Glasgow Herald. Okay. Uh and uh it was not a good experience. Uh but but in the business I then realized if you really want to have a chance. The place you really develop is DC Thompson, Sunday Post.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

We're huge fans of the Sunday Post here.

SPEAKER_03 14:13

So am I. So I I then made application at Sunday Post.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

What did you?

SPEAKER_03 14:18

Uh so I went to I went to Herald in July and I joined the Post in November.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

What did you do there?

SPEAKER_03 14:26

Everything.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

What did you?

SPEAKER_03 14:28

Everything. The biggest thing I did, I started to do sport initially for them. Uh and it was the weekly news and the Sunday Post or sister paper, so you did the first half of the weekly news, and the second half of the week in the Sunday Post. Um, and uh uh they were so different, that was the other thing that was remarkable. Very different papers and very different material they wanted. Um so I was doing that, and then eventually I was moved on to do uh news and features on the Sunday Post and sport at the weekend.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

So I did the honest truth for years and years.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

Oh did you? But was sport your is that the pathway you wanted to get to? Was that your big interest? So how does how does law come back into this?

SPEAKER_03 15:18

Uh well I did um I did about a year and a half at uh Sunday Post, and then I was an applic an uh an advertisement for Assistant Secretary of the Scottish Football League. And looking at that, I had the the background for that. So I was persuaded to apply for it. I was not sure about it, but I applied for it and I got it. Uh and I spent a year and a half there. But I had no idea. And I it wasn't uh very fulfilling at that time. Um and uh I then went back to Sunday Post and uh then I actually went back to doing news and features and stuff as well as the sport. Uh and I did that for another two or three years and then came to the conclusion. I went to the Glasgow Press Club one night, but I mean I was a member of the press club and I went to the press club one night and I looked around it and I saw a lot of pickled people. Because that was annoying, and they're all weren't these shifts with the the the evening paper guys were there at six in the morning and were finished at two in the afternoon. Sure. Went to press club. Sure. Uh and the guys were working in the daily papers. We'd start it at two in the afternoon, and so they'd maybe in the morning when in plain snooker or something, you know, or whatever. And I'm looking about it was a lifestyle, really. For you, it's not long term for me. I've enjoyed what I've done, I did enjoy it. Um and I decided to go back and study law. Um so I did that through the Law Society in Scotland. In Scotland. The Law Society, you if you I I phoned the Law Society, uh and I had a very charming lady, who a lot too, don't know who she was, I can't remember. Uh but I said, look, I'm well, here's my background, but I I'm interested in a leal in Scotland. Right, here's I said, What's the quickest way? I'm now married with kids. What's the quickest way to qualify as a lawyer in Scotland? And she said, Oh, the quickest way, but I don't recommend it. The quickest way is to find a firm who'll give you an apprenticeship and study at the same time and sit on the last side of Scotland professional exams. If you did that, the quickest time you could do it in is two years, but I'm not recommending that because that if you're going to work and try and study, you'll never cope with that. That's that's too demanding. But that you asked me the quickest way. That's the quickest way. That's what I did.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

And that's what you juggled all of that and qualified in Scotland.

SPEAKER_03 18:02

So what I did at that time was I I went to do the apprenticeship. I was working on a firm in Mullerwell. Uh worked there uh Monday to Friday. Uh studied every night. So I'd finish work at half past five. Uh, and the cleaner would come in with a roll and a coffee.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

And look after you.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

Look after me. And I went study six till nine and then go home at nine. And I did that Monday to Friday. On Saturday, I got a job in the Sunday Express doing a football match report. Because I now have no money, remember. I have no money at all at that point. So I have to go and try and earn something. So I spent the Saturday uh doing a football match report somewhere all over the country. Um and then Sunday I studied and then back to my Monday to Friday again for two years.

SPEAKER_02 18:56

But you persevered and became a lawyer? Yes. A successful lawyer?

SPEAKER_03 19:03

I think people would probably say I was successful, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Let's come back to that. I want to go I want to talk about the Archie McPherson story. Oh yeah. So for any of our members listening, Archie McPherson was is a well-renowned journalist, broadcaster in Scotland, did so much in terms of football commentary, um, and he's kind of become an icon of of Scottish broadcasting. So how does how do you get a link with Archie? He's playing in your in your dad's football team.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

He played in the Jordan Hill team, outside right. He was a sprinter, fast as very fast. Very, very quick. So he played as a good team. He played outside right in the team. And because I was there most Saturdays, all the players got to know me. Um and I knew them. Um and uh so uh I would meet him at odd places, you know, and I met him then, uh and he always chatted. And I grew up, and uh as as I remember going to a match at Motherwell at Cuptie at Motherwell and he was commentating and I met him outside and he said, Oh, so we're an older chat. And he said, Well, I think you're doing some broadcasting, and I said, not really, no, no, I thought about that. He said, Well, I can tell you that uh this was January. Next season radio's expanding massively, and they're looking for people to do match reports and things. Would you be interested? I said, Oh yeah, it's good, good, good, yeah, it's good fun. Now I've now switched to the law. I said, that'd be great fun. All right, I'll I'll I'll tell them about you. And that was January. And the season started, new season started August 9. On August 8th, I got a phone call from the BBC. I understand you're interested in doing match supports. And I said, yeah, yeah. That's what we fair to say you're interested in doing that. Yeah, that's right. Right, can you go to Kilmarnock tomorrow? And commentate or together.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

No, just do match support.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

So I'd sit at the game and do a report into the phone, you know, phone the report in. Uh, and that's what I started doing.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03 21:21

So he got me in.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

And how so how did that progress? Because you actually moved into doing full football commentary.

SPEAKER_03 21:29

Yeah, well that what happened there was I started doing the match reports. Uh it was a big change at the time, it's now commonplace, but at that time it was it was brand new. It used to be so you sit at a match and you had a system whereby you could contact the studio and say that a Goldman scored.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 21:45

And they'd come to you and you would tell them what happened to the Goldman scored. And that would that insert but insert to the main commentary that would insert from all the all the grounds. That was the start of all that.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

So I was this on radio.

SPEAKER_03 21:57

Radio BC, Radio Scotland, yeah. And then the uh the producer of that whole thing, the guy in charge of that, uh said to me after about a year, he said, you ever think of doing commentary? And I said, Really no? He said, You won't ever go to it. I said, Oh, okay.

unknown 22:20

Why not?

SPEAKER_03 22:21

So he gave me a dummy run commentary. And after that, I was in.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

I'm really curious about this. How do you learn to do that? Um I imagine it's tougher than it looks. How and and there there's a great skill in making that kind of normalized.

SPEAKER_03 22:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

How do you do that?

SPEAKER_03 22:44

I don't know. I don't know. I think uh I remember I remember it vividly this the game I did as a dummy run. What they said to me was go to Dumbarton versus Dundee. Clamor tie. Aye, big game, um, which is going to be the the Saturday afternoon commentary. They did the second half of uh game, and that's all they did in those days was the second half of the game.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

And was this also for radio? This is Radio Scotland.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

This is still radio, and this is a live commentary. Alistair Alexander was doing the commentary in the radio, and that doing the second, and they said, Go to the game and you do the first half of the dummy run. So I'm well, I was a lovely man, couldn't be more helpful. So I go I go to the I go to the game, and uh he says, just just do your own thing, just you know, and so I'm connected to the studio and they said do your own thing. So I start the game and I start the warble, and always remember never forget they get user come out of my ear in my earphone and said, Right, keep talking and listen.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Okay, that's tricky.

SPEAKER_03 23:53

Immediately keep talking. Keep talking and listen. So he then gave me a couple of pointers, and then I had nothing, and I just did the game to half time. And they told me come back into studio after the after the game. So I went back into the studio after the game, and the producer hugged me.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

And said a commentator.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

And you just it were just a natural.

SPEAKER_03 24:24

That was me started. And within that would have been that would have been probably uh March 78, probably. And I did England, Scotland, a Wembley about 18 months later.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

For TV? For radio two radio two. For radio two, yeah. And you progressed to television, yeah. And so what was that transition like?

SPEAKER_03 24:50

Massively difficult.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Because that's a bigger audience.

SPEAKER_03 24:55

Forget the audience. The problem is uh people see the pictures. So you you're you you're not just you do the radio, you so you can do things to make the game better. It's just past the post when it's sitting a corner fly. And no one will know that. So you can on the radio you can manufacture a lot more, but on television the pictures tell the story.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 25:17

So what you're trying to do is enhance the understanding of the pictures.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

Okay. And how do you learn to do that?

SPEAKER_03 25:26

Practice.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

Practice. I I I have a couple of questions about your football commentating. One is how do you do that if you support one of the teams? Can you do that? Uh is that really tricky?

SPEAKER_03 25:42

Uh well, the only time that became relevant for me was I did Hamilton Ackies against Celtic at Douglas Park, I remember.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 25:51

Uh, and it was the commentary gantry was put right above the tunnel, which is right in front of the director's box in the stand, so everybody can see you. Uh, and uh in fairness, uh that I'm a Hamilton Ackies man, so I'm I'm watching the Yackies and and they scored after 80 minutes. It was nil-nil in eighty minutes, and John Maylor scored for set for Hamilton, and I had to commentate on it, and I got out my seat at the goal getting in, and then realised where I was and sort of had to taper that had uh sat down uh and uh Celtic scored two more before the end, so Celtic 1-2-1. Um, but that was that was the only time I felt a difficulty at a club match, but international matches are different, you've got a World Cup match with Scotland.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

You can you can kind of let that go.

SPEAKER_03 26:46

I thought I don't think you do, you know. I don't do fan TV, I don't rate that. No, you've got to be totally professional about it, and you've still got to be professional, you've still got to see two teams. You've got to watch two teams play, not one. Uh but you're obviously wanting Scotland to win and you're supporting Scotland. Um, but that isn't a justification for being professional, you've still got to be professional about it.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

And you mentioned interestingly there that in that Hamilton accept Celtic game you'd kind of get out of your seat when when Hamilton acke scored. But you you actually went on to be the chief executive at Celtic?

SPEAKER_03 27:22

No, I didn't.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

No.

SPEAKER_03 27:23

No, I was general manager.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

Oh, you were general manager? Is that a different thing? It was a different thing. What what does what did that entail then?

SPEAKER_03 27:32

Um it entailed everything to do with the football department except coaching the team.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

So mainly it was uh transfers, bring in players, buy in, buy players, sell players, enhance the the the team quality by means of recruiting players.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Was that an interesting role to have? To be behind the scenes? Fantastic. Fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 27:57

Very good, great fun.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

What did you enjoy about that?

SPEAKER_03 28:01

Uh I enjoy being in the middle of it all. I enjoyed doing the deals. I mean, I was also uh the legal background was very helpful because I'm doing contracts and I'm I'm doing deals. So, you know, you you're signing players who become superstars. I mean, uh didn't weren't superstars in the right, but they became superstars. Uh Henrik Larson, Lubin Moravchik, and people like that. You know, they Paul Lambert, Drake Burley, all became superstars. Great players. Uh and you know, you're involved in bringing them in. Um that was very, very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

Did you miss did you step back from football commentary at that point?

SPEAKER_03 28:39

Yes, I had to.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

To to be independent? Yeah. And did you miss that? Did you you missed it?

SPEAKER_03 28:45

No, I did, uh well, I'm back to it as soon as I left. Oh but no, yeah, I missed it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

Because you came became, like Archie McPherson, a recognisable voice in Scottish football?

SPEAKER_03 28:58

Yeah, I probably did, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, you would do.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

I I remember hearing your voice uh growing up, and my dad would have sports scene or or or Scot Sport or something on and I would recognise your voice from that.

SPEAKER_03 29:15

Well, the the thing then was you see, uh when I started uh there was sports scene, there was Scotch sport, I was in Scottsport, and then I moved to Sports Scene.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 29:23

Uh to uh to ten years of Scotch Sport and then moved to Sports Scene, there was nothing else. There only were two commentators, television commentators doing football in Scotland at that time. Now there's hundreds of them, you know, all over the place. But in those days there were only two, if a football was on and it was a televised match, it was either Archie or me.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

So both voices would become very familiar to people.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

Iconic voices. And and uh the other question I wanted to ask you about football commentary, it's to do with a game that transcended football and law, and it's a very foot it was a very famous football game that you commentated on where Rangers were playing Celtic. I think a couple of the players got sent off.

SPEAKER_03 30:09

Goldilocks and the Three Bears, they called it.

SPEAKER_02 30:12

Yes, so I think that was Frank McIvenney for Celtic. Teddy Butcher, Chris Woods.

SPEAKER_03 30:18

And Roberts, Chris Woods, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

But actually, what happened on the field ended up in court and I wondered I was cited as a witness. Oh you were? Yeah. Oh my goodness. So how how do you approach that when you're commentating on the game, but you also have this legal profession? You you've just said you were cited as a witness. What uh uh that was a firestorm in Scottish football? I sure was, yeah. What what was what's your take on that?

SPEAKER_03 30:48

Well, your take on it is you all you do is the the words you use over the incidents, you've got to choose carefully. Yeah. But you just do that and you do it as fairly and honestly and uh neutrally uh as you can. Uh and what I was cited for was they I was cited to give evidence about my commentary. Okay and eventually what happened was they took they got a transcript of my commentary over the relevant incidents, uh and they sent it to me and asked me to confirm that's what I said. And of course, it was what I said because I just did a transcription off the television coverage. And uh when that happened, the defence and the crown agreed that that was what I said. Okay, and I didn't have to go to court and confirm that. That was all I would be doing, so yeah, that's what I said. And that's what that's how I read it, and that's how that's what I said at the time.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

And how do you be how how are you measured in that moment, in the heat of that moment, when things are happening on the field and you're reacting to them? How do you not get emotional about it?

SPEAKER_03 32:09

Well, you definitely don't. Well, you can't, you don't. I mean, you're still stone cold, you're still cold during it. You've absolutely got to be stone cold. And of course, um I realised what was happening was legal potentially. Sure, because of your background. Yeah. Uh no, you've just got to stay, you've got to stay the same as Scotland playing the World Cup. You've got to stay as cold as ice. You can't get emotional about it.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

What was your favourite? Do you have a favourite game you ever commentated on?

SPEAKER_03 32:38

Um one or two, yeah. Um I find it hard to get away from Aberdeen winning the year championship uh Cup with us cup uh against Real Madrid in Gothenburg. That was that was massive.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

Was that was Alex Ferguson there?

SPEAKER_03 32:56

He was the manager, yeah. And uh the other one was the the cup final I remember was my first cup final for the BBC and that was Motherwolf Ford and D United III.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 33:11

Cracker, great game. That rings with me too. And the Scotland games when they qualify for the World Cup. I mean that these games are stay with you. Huge.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

And your your late brother Craig was the former Scotland manager. What would I what would he be thinking about Scotland going to the World Cup? He was the last manager to take us there.

SPEAKER_03 33:37

Oh no, he'd be overjoyed. Would he? Oh absolutely, I mean he was the biggest fan of all. He was quite upset about it. It wasn't happening, you know. But uh and he's a big fan of Steve Clark and manager now, you know, so he would have been oh, absolutely delighted, yeah, no question.

SPEAKER_02 33:57

What about if I can ask you, Jock, about dealing with bereavement, because it's something that you know happens to us all, it affects our members and and many others. What was that like to lose your your big brother and and kind of share that grief with a a nation, I guess?

SPEAKER_03 34:17

Uh well it was it was difficult, um very difficult. It was the hard part of it was the fact that we knew he was dying, and it it took a week. Okay. Um so his family uh were there all the time. I was there all the time. My brother was there all the time. So we're going there day by day for a week, uh knowing you're gonna lose a week. It was only a question of when, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

It was extremely difficult.

SPEAKER_03 34:51

Of course, but I mean for his for his wife and kids, you know, uh much really terrible. And you were there for them too. I mean, that was a very important element in it was uh to offer support for them. That was very difficult.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

And there were some beautiful tributes paid to him when he passed. Did they bring you some some peace or yeah, they did, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:20

So no, that was uh it was it was good to see all that. But yeah, it's more private than that, you know. You know, your own you know losing your brother. Because uh I'm very, very happy to say, you know, people talk about all the time about uh loved ones and all that, uh when they're talking about family. It's not always the case. Sure because the family families fall out. Uh but we didn't. Uh the three of us um I don't remember a crossword. And we're always very supportive of the other two, whatever we're doing, you know. So uh that that that's quite important and it kept you close. Um but that applied to three of us, you know, it was all the time, no matter good times and bad times, career-wise and things like that. Um they were all in for each other.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

And I guess when you were talking about your parents earlier, and that that it seems like that kind of strong fortitude they had for family and upbringing, perhaps having your siblings was a great help to you?

SPEAKER_03 36:30

Massive. No question, massive. Maybe the most influential probably the one in the middle. Yeah, is that right?

SPEAKER_02 36:38

And he's an entire minister. What what has he brought to your life? Um just when you say he's a massive influence.

SPEAKER_03 36:49

I would I would class him the most important person in my life.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

Is that right?

SPEAKER_03 36:56

Yeah. In terms of we shared a room for all the years of kids. We'd have we shared a bedroom. Um as boys, he's three years older than me. Uh and uh where we lived actually at the time was hardly anybody my age, roundabout. He'd he'd pals his age, but no nobody, no school school parler were near us. Um so my age group, and he integrated me into his age group, which was unusual to do for your wee brother, you know, your wee brother to get involved. Um, but he was also a massive influence. He's a very bad guy's a very bright guy, a very a massive influence in life generally. Um and uh uh spent that time with him, a lot of time with him as a kid. Uh and uh I do remember when I first discovered he was a minister, I couldn't believe that because it was in the back of he's a very good golfer, and he won this Andrew Boys Golf Championship uh and I carried for him in the final uh and he came he came from behind in the final and won at the old course uh in the last green. And we'd walk around the back nine, there was this very distinguished-looking gentleman with a white bonnet who walked round watching. There's quite a few watching, but this guy I kept seeing this guy. And eventually we finished up, and the guy, this guy, came over to us. And we're the last green, just getting the bag got the glove sorted out, and uh and he came over and introduced himself. And he was a professional at the Glen Eagles, is that right? A man called Jack McLean, an old gentleman. Uh and he said to my brother, um, are your parents here by any chance? And they were, they were behind the last screen. So that's him over there. He disappeared and he came back with them and said that he'd watched that and he was very impressed by not just the way he played but the way he conducted himself and so forth. And wondered if he would be interested in coming to Glen Eagles as an assistant professional. Wow. And he said thanks very much, but no, I I'm going to be a minister. Was that shocking?

SPEAKER_02 39:17

Was that shocking for you?

SPEAKER_03 39:19

Well, I didn't know. Uh-huh. No idea. And so he declined the offer to become a professional golfer.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

What was his reason to become a minister? Was it to help others? Oh yeah. Was it? Oh, absolutely. But you see, you you have that in you too. And I wonder if that's a I was never gonna be a minister.

unknown 39:40

No.

SPEAKER_02 39:41

But you know, I know people will will perhaps label you as a broadcaster or a commentator or whatever, a lawyer. But actually you've done so much good in the background just quietly helping others. And is that is that a strain that that has run through your family?

SPEAKER_03 40:05

Yeah. I never think about that. I never I don't I don't think what you're saying. Um I'm trying to recognise, you know, because I'm not conscious of it. Uh but but it is there. I'd be very pleased if it was.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

Um I suppose the example I'm thinking about is you you've done so much over the years to promote education to children and families from areas of of economic deprivation, and promoting the opportunity that higher and further education can bring. And I wonder what why why did you why did you do that? Why is that important to you?

SPEAKER_03 40:45

Uh I think it's important to give back and to contribute. I think that's basically a thing, but that came about. You're talking about children's university, and that came about in a very strange way because uh I was invited to speak uh at Carlisle. Um and it was it was uh it was the Cumbrian Cambridge alumni society or whatever, asked me to go and speak at their functions. Um and I went down to do that at Carlisle because of I'd support that cause, you know. So uh I was at Carlisle, not United Carl United Football Ground, it was where they held it in the stadium. Um so I I went down there and did this, and uh as I did so I looked out at the audience. And in the audience was one of my teammates at Cambridge. No and he since, you know. And you hadn't seen him since I hadn't seen him at all since I sit in the front row, and I thought, thank goodness me. So of course I do my thing and then so we then in the bar and we started to chat uh and uh catch up in careers and stuff. Um and uh it had been advertised this thing was happening and that's why he came. Uh and uh I said to him, so what are you what you do? Apart from career-wise, we talk about he says, Oh I'm uh chairman of Children's University in England. I've never heard of it. So I said, So he told me all about Children's University and and and it and it's and I said to him then that sounds fantastic, I said terrific thing. I said, why is it not in Scotland? And he looked at me and he said, Well, we've got no one in Scotland to promote it. Maybe until now. He looked at me and I thought, so I drove back up the road and I thought, I can't not do this. Yeah. So I started to go about setting up Some University of Scotland.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

And that resulted in hundreds of children and young people going along to graduation ceremonies at places like the Barony Hall with the University of Strathclyde and many others.

SPEAKER_03 43:14

Um Let me tell you one story that sticks with me that made it all worthwhile. Uh the idea was, for what we don't know that, the idea was that we promoted extra mural activities at post-school activities for kids who otherwise would have had no access to things. Uh, so they could they could qualify, they could decide they want to be a musician, say, or or chess player, whatever they wanted to be, that was that was productive and educational to do it out with school hours in a manner where every hour they spent, they get an hour's credit. And once they had 30 hours, they got a bronze award and then they get a silver award and then a gold award. Hundred miles or whatever. And they graduated to get these awards at places like the Barony Hall and Queen Market and Edinburgh and Aberdeen and all over the place. So we recruited all these kids. Ideally, ones that were deprived. That was a big target. Sure. To give them an opportunity to do new things. And we started it in 2012, 2013, I think it was the first graduation at Barney Hall. And two weeks after that graduation, I was going to London and I went to Central Station in Glasgow to buy a ticket. And the guy behind the desk absolutely returned to London. And he said, before we start, Mr. Brown, Chris. I just want to thank you. And I said, I'm sorry, quite on it. He said, I was at a graduation. Barry Hall. Yes, I was. I said, Oh, one of your kids there. My boy was there. He graduated. I said, Oh, that's perfect. That's great. He said, Oh, you don't know how great it is. I said, Oh, what is my? He said, the boy was lost. We couldn't cope with him. His mother and I couldn't do in with him. I couldn't get him to study, he wouldn't do anything. He was he was a complete problem all the time. He was playing true and he wasn't he wasn't doing anything uh productive and he's in bad company and we're worried sick about him. And he joined Children's University. And he graduated. And one of the rules we had was you cannot attend a Children's University event if you've dogged school. If you played prudent, you can't do it. So you have to go to school first. So he said he has never missed a class. He's doing extremely well at school, and he's happy as Laddie. And it's all because of Children's University. What's a boy's name? So we go, Oh, I've got the boy's name. And I left it and I phoned the chief exec, Children's University. I said, Well, do me a favour, you check this boy out. Gave her the name, phoned me back in about 10 minutes and said, bang on. The boy's been transformed. And I thought to myself, sat in that train, I thought, if I do nothing else in my life. You've done something right. That's all it is, just one boy. Oh, for sure. But I like to think of a lot more than one boy.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

And I I've seen that myself. I've seen you know the impact that you've had on what will be hundreds of young people. It's been such a pleasure to speak to you today, Jock. But I have some quick questions from the team, but I haven't seen these, so let's go for it. Oh, I love this. This is a great first one. Where was your favourite football ground to commentate on back in the 80s and 90s out with the major city stadiums? Do you have a favourite?

SPEAKER_03 47:15

Favourite place.

SPEAKER_02 47:19

It just says ain't any.

SPEAKER_03 47:23

Oh well, a favourite place would be probably the Bernabéo and that's Madrid. Nice. Yeah. Newcamp's good too.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

That's Barcelona, isn't it? This is a really tricky question. If you could put together your dream Scottish team from your era of involvement, who's in it?

SPEAKER_03 47:48

Doug Lecian Law. Straight away. Um who else is in it?

SPEAKER_02 47:56

Who was your favourite footballer?

SPEAKER_03 47:58

Dennis Law.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

Dennis Law.

SPEAKER_03 47:59

Oh by a mile.

SPEAKER_02 48:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:02

Absolutely. And the great thing about Dennis Law was I worked with him constantly in radio.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

Oh did you?

SPEAKER_03 48:09

Did commentary. And he's just a lovely, lovely man. He was a lovely, lovely guy. And that made me very happy too because sometimes you meet your heroes and they're a big disappointment about that. But he wasn't. No, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

Who else are you putting in your football team?

SPEAKER_03 48:26

Well, Douglash, without question. Um I were also a Davy Cooper in it for two reasons. Uh I got to know him, I was very lucky. I got to know him very well later in his career, uh, and he was just a smashing guy apart from a wonderful footballer.

SPEAKER_02 48:45

And a Hamiltonian.

SPEAKER_03 48:47

Yes, Davy. That's right. Yeah, it was a Hamiltonian. Yeah, that was a tragedy. That was a heartbreak when he died.

SPEAKER_02 48:54

Terrible tragedy. What's been your favourite job out of everything that we've talked about and why?

SPEAKER_03 49:02

Yeah, I would say probably General Manager Celtic.

SPEAKER_02 49:06

It was.

SPEAKER_03 49:07

Yeah. Yeah, because it taught me so much about myself too, because uh I faced relentless adversity through that because I was pilloried in the press constantly. Uh, and you have to deal with that, you have to cope with it and handle it, um, and you have to pay attention to it. You gotta say, all these folk are saying you're a monster, maybe you are, you know, you've got to think about it. Um uh and I then reflect on what happened during that time. Um and in terms of achieving and coping in such adverse adversity, uh that is the one I think I would I would choose. The other thing about that was that I always got a dreadful time in the press, apparently because I never read the press. I stopped doing it very quickly when I was there, but I kept getting told relevant stuff, um, and I could I was well aware of the antipathy towards me. Um but I always remember when I arrived at Celtic Park to work, it was a terrific working environment. Lots of great people in there, terrific people, and they treated me very, very well. I never had a problem in the building with anybody in the building. Uh the only problem I had was outside and the press and you know that kind of coverage.

SPEAKER_02 50:35

Did that coverage hurt you? Was it hurtful?

SPEAKER_03 50:40

No, I don't think it I don't think it hurt was a factor because I understood it. I understood why it was happening, I understood what it was about, um and uh it's not pleasant, if you like, but um but I I I no one will criticize me tough more than I will. I'm the one biggest critic. Um so I mean for instance you sign Lubimurafchek. Delightful man, wonderful player. And you arrive back in Scotland after doing the deal to find a newspaper headline saying Celtics sign dud check. Well, it's not a check, it's certainly not a dud. But that was the reaction to him arriving within about a month. He's a superstar, yes, but but that was and and part of the reason that that stuff was happening was because I signed him, and that meant it had to be criticized, it had to be hammered, yeah. So uh, but when you recognize that and you see that and you know that it's actually quite uh enlightening for yourself because you you scrutinize yourself at these times, uh and it was it was a very significant experience, yeah. Have you made peace with that now? Yeah, yeah. I made peace with it quite quickly, yeah. Oh no, I I would I don't think I was ever out of peace with it because I understood it, I think. And uh it reflected, I thought, extremely badly on a lot of people and a lot of uh on a lot of aspects of the media, which sadly are still around, you know, the aspects of the media. And that upsets me too because I started as a journalist. I remember the National Union of Journalists, and you're not gonna be a few.

SPEAKER_00 52:53

It's like you know the folk.

SPEAKER_03 52:55

Uh-huh. But then again, there were exceptions, of course. There were people in the journalistic world at the time, uh, who were uh extremely fair and reasonable and decent. One of whom died last week. Uh-huh. Um was at his funeral last week, his funeral. Uh guy called Brian Scott, at LML, first class man in every respect. Um, and I'd known him for 60 years, I think. Uh so you know that there's the exceptions, it's not all bad.

SPEAKER_02 53:30

No, no. Two final questions, Jock. We we're a credit union that has thousands of members and they're all at different life stages. If you could give them and your younger self any advice, what would it be? So for our members, what what would you what advice would you give to them? Because you celebrated a big birthday last week. You celebrated your 80th birthday last week. What what what life wisdom can you share with them and good people? Listen to good people? And what about for you looking back in your life, what would you say to young jock going off to Cambridge?

SPEAKER_03 54:14

Listen to more good people. It's a perfect I did I did listen to some, but listen to more.

SPEAKER_02 54:20

It's a perfect way to end because our whole podcast is about money-made human and people. I have one last question. What would what would you and Margaret think of you as you celebrate your 80th birthday? What would they say about your life well lived and the the work you've done to help others?

SPEAKER_03 54:42

My father would say, why didn't you do things better?

SPEAKER_02 54:49

I think he would. Do you think so? But do you think inside there'd be there'd be immense pride for everything you've done?

SPEAKER_03 54:59

I think my mother might feel that. I don't know, my father.

SPEAKER_02 55:04

I'm I'm sure they would. I'm sure they would. We're proud of you and proud to to know you, and thank you so much for coming in to speak to us. Everyone, Jock Brown! Thanks for listening to the Money Made Human podcast. We're grateful to spend time with you and hope you enjoyed it. If you want to join a credit union, choose us with love. Until the next time, first class credit union.