Elaine Rae – Chief Executive Officer, NHS Credit Union (#25)

Episode 25 of the Money Made Human podcast features Elaine Rae, Chief Executive Officer of NHS Credit Union.

Elaine has dedicated her career to improving people's lives, from her early work in mental health nursing, social work, and palliative care to leading one of Scotland's largest credit unions. Having spent five years as Chair of the Board before becoming Chief Executive Officer, she is also one of the founding members of NHS Credit Union and has played a key role in its growth over the past decade.

In this episode, host Gayle Lloyd speaks with Elaine about her career journey, the experiences that shaped her values, and the influence of growing up in poverty, her mother's resilience, and her family's trade union roots. She also reflects on the importance of compassionate care, including helping people achieve what she describes as a "good death", and how these experiences continue to inform her leadership today.

The conversation explores the role of credit unions during the ongoing cost-of-living crisis, the importance of empowering women in leadership, and NHS Credit Union's Safe Harbour programme, which supports members experiencing economic abuse to regain control of their finances. Elaine also shares her work with the Coalition of Credit Unions, her ambitions for the future of NHS Credit Union, and her hopes for the years ahead.

Key topics in this episode include:

• Elaine's career journey and leadership at NHS Credit Union
• Growing up in poverty and the influence of her mother and trade union roots
• Her background in mental health nursing, social work, and palliative care
• Female leadership and empowering women in the workplace
• NHS Credit Union's Safe Harbour programme and supporting survivors of economic abuse
• The role of credit unions during the cost-of-living crisis

Join us for a thoughtful and inspiring conversation about compassion, leadership, financial wellbeing, and the power of credit unions to change lives.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Money Made Human podcast. It celebrates at its heart the work of credit unions and their vital role in enriching our lives and communities. Brought to you by First Class Credit Union, each episode features insightful discussions revealing the meaningful impact that can be made through economic collaboration. Mostly, it's a collection of compassionate conversations about navigating life and the individual journeys we take. Welcome to here. Welcome, welcome, welcome. So, Elaine, we're so excited to have you today, and um there's loads of really uh great questions we've got for you. Our team have come up with their normal uh life and work questions, which uh they'll join us with later. I wanted to ask you about your career journey. Um, I wanted to ask you about the NHS credit union, which is obviously really important, and how your members are doing just now in this ongoing cost of living crisis, and I wanted to ask you about your involvement with a coalition of credit unions as well. Um, so we'll we'll come to that. You're the CEO at the NHS uh credit union. How long have you been there and what what inspires you about doing that job?

SPEAKER_01 1:50

It's a great question. Um so I've been there four as the chief executive officer four years on the 1st of June this year. Prior to that, I was chair of the board for five years. And I suppose if you look at my whole journey with National Health Service Credit Union, I was one of the founding members. The idea for the National Health Service Credit Union was born around my kitchen table. Uh, its original founding member is Robert Ray, who I'm married to. And uh we were two little kids who, in the area where your credit union is sitting right now, uh we lived locally and we joined the credit union there probably 30 odd years ago now, Rutherglen Credit Union, and it was part of the biggest group of credit unions now, and we were two young parents uh in that area with two little kids, and they taught us how to budget on a Saturday morning. And we went from being absolutely crap with money to learning how to save regularly uh and how to make our money last longer and spread further. Um, so we did work for the health service at that point. I was in psychiatric nursing, and Robert was a very senior union official for Unison, and um we took it forward from there. Um, he led on it uh as the head unison person. When and I think when Tony Blair came into power, so it was the first time there was ever a Labour government after many, many years of uh a Tory government which had created such poverty and hardship, and particularly across NHS staff at that point. And at that point, myself and most of my family worked in what was then the Southern General Hospital, including Robert and myself, and my mum, and my sisters, and my brother, and his mum, because anybody that's ever worked in the Southern will know it is like a family business. You come straight out of the schools and straight into the hospitals in different roles. Um, so that was where the journey started. I can't remember what your other part of that question was now, Gail. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Um I was just asking what inspires you about doing that job every day?

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Every day. Every day I got up, and the thing that inspires me is making people's lives better through financial wellness. And for me, that's about what I learned as that young parent. Our our goal, very humble goal at that point, was how do we teach people this? Because it completely transformed our outlook and our ability to um, you know, save money and pay bills and do really simple things like budget. Uh, so what inspires me every day is there are still people in that situation because it's still really difficult, I think, across the Scottish school system, they don't teach enough about financial wellness and financial education, and poverty, the scars of poverty run deep. And for us, having no money and then learning how to have a little bit of money and manage that money was life-changing. So, what gets me up in the morning is that number one, we can teach that to new people, and when people become members of the credit union, um, it can not only change their lives but change their families' lives. So, I think that motivates me, making the world a fairer, better place and redistributing the wealth in the world because now we are a multi-million pound business, 50 million in assets, 26,500 members across the whole of NHS Scotland and the north of England, from one little room in the Southern General Hospital at the beginning to who we are now, and we're very, very proud of that. Very proud of that. But what we're most proud of is that we make a difference. We're here to challenge the financial system so that it works for the people who build the wealth, and it is our belief that the people who built the wealth of National Health Service Credit Union are, of course, its members, so they should benefit from that.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

Elaine, I'd love to talk more about a couple of the things you've said there about your members and wealth. Can we go back a bit further before we do that? I'm really fascinated to know you were talking about of uh kind of starting out in this local area which sits on the boundary between Lanarkshire and the west of Scotland and Glasgow. What was your upbringing like? And did you grow up around here?

SPEAKER_01 6:29

I didn't, I'm a Govern lassie. And of course, the National Health Service credit unionist uh offices are still in Govern, but they were originally in the Southern General Hospital. Um, we lived uh in the area um in what was then King's Park, and then they changed the boundary and it became Rutherglen at that point when we when our children were small, now big adults. Um and so the nearest credit union to us was Rutherglen, so that that was why we joined. Um but both Robert and I, uh Robert being the founding member, uh, grew up in Govan and we went to school there of opposite sides of the sectarian divide.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Okay, and what was that like? What was what was growing up in Govern like for you?

SPEAKER_01 7:15

Uh I think it was like for most young people. Um there was a lot of poverty, a lot of poverty, and the scars of that run deep in my mind. What do I mean by that? I remember hiding behind the couch when the debt collector came to the door. I remember my mother, who was a single parent, saying, Don't answer the door because I've not got any money to pay this person. Um, I remember going without things that you needed, like most of my friends did as well. Uh, so I think, did we feel that we were poor? I don't know that we did because everybody was poor. Um, and we we had lots of fun and lots of good things in our lives, but it it was hard when I look back at it now. Um, we went, you know, school meals were brilliant, that redistribution of wealth. I had a free school dinner, um, and that was one of the best things for me. My best pal's mum was a dinner lady, and I thought there was no higher accolades than your mum being a dinner lady, because one, we got the big slice of cake when we went in for World Dinner with the custard, and uh yeah, and uh that hot meal every single day. So things things weren't easy, but we had a camaraderie um growing up um with our friends because nobody had anything. So I think an ambition of all of us was to come forward in life, like your parents wanted that for you, everybody's parents wants that for them, don't they? But once we found the tools of money management and money wealth, for us it was about this can change everybody's lives.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

And what about your mum? Was she an inspiration to you? Who do you get who do you get your your qualities and your you know your inspiration from?

SPEAKER_01 9:04

My mum was a very strong person, a single parent who raised four children on her own. My dad was still around, but they were divorced very young uh after that. So yeah, I think I think probably she was, but my dad was a really solid trade unionist as she was. So I come from very strong trade union roots, um, and it that was a real pride in our family to be on the right side of justice and fighting for working-class people's lives to be better. So I think, yeah, my mum was a big influence in me. She was a senior steward in Newpie, the National Union of Public Employees, before it became part of Unison, which was Newpie, Cosy, and NALGO, which were the three big trade unions that came together. And um, she was the one when I went into the health service, I went into mental health nursing, and she was the one that influenced me to become a shop steward at 18, uh, which was an interesting journey for me. Um, but you know, it it was how I get into learning again, um, because I had not such great experiences in learning in school, even though I knew I was smart. Um, but school can be a difficult place for young working-class people. You were often blamed for your poverty. Um, you know, even if you couldn't get to school or you didn't have the right kit or whatever, whatever, teachers didn't always seem to have an understanding that that wasn't a choice. It was a reality. There wasn't enough money.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

And do you think that that kind of trade union background has got into your bloodstream in terms of standing up for others?

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Oh, definitely, definitely. Um, I think it's part and parcel of who I am and who my family are, and who um my children are, who are now 34 and 29. Uh, so we will always look at the bigger picture and who has power and who doesn't. Um, so I think it's definitely in the blood. You ain't done nothing if you ain't been called a red.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

How would your family describe you?

SPEAKER_01 11:15

Well, they probably all wouldn't describe me in the same way. Um but my mother's famous saying was that I was gregarious, that's what she was being generous, um, but other times she would say, You've got my heart roasted. Um, I think I was always an energetic child, and that's a lot when you've got four.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

I've not heard that phrase for years, you've got my heart roasted, brilliant. Going going forward, looking at your your career now, Elaine, and you you said you had kind of got into the NHS through nursing. Yeah. Is there still a strand of that that you pulled through to today's work in terms of caring for others and that passion for for others, especially around things like mental well-being?

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Yeah, I think so. So, although I started out in mental health nursing, I went on to retrain after my daughters were born because they had the Community Care Act that changed at that point, and I went on to retrain as a social worker and became a social work manager. I went on to specialise and retrain after that, so I was dual trained in palliative care. So I spent 10 years in um end-of-life care working in hospice care, which I absolutely loved. Still get great friends from there, and what you realize in working in palliative care is um death and dying are you know the biggies, um, but working in death and dying um teaches you a lot about what matters and what doesn't in terms of uh big life events, but also how to even up the landscape at times, because even at um the end of life, poverty can play a part in who gets access to services. So a big part of my role in palliative care was about making sure that people had the death that they uh I want to say wanted, that isn't always the right way to put it, but a good death, a death with dignity, and a death that meant sure that they and their family had um opportunities to say goodbye and that they weren't left in difficult situations. So part of my job around different services, hospice care, five different types of services. Um, and my job a lot of the time was bringing all of those people together that had different agendas to make sure that person could have the death they wanted, whether that was at home, whether that was in the hospice, whether that was somewhere else, or whether that was in a hospital. And getting all of those professionals into a room to agree that for the person, with the person, was was a difficult, was a difficult role, but it was a brilliant thing if we could accomplish it. And you get one shot at it to get it right.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Elaine, like you, first class credit union, we really care about the bereavement process and um because it's the ultimate human experience, I think.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Absolutely, and we'll all experience it.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Absolutely, you know, it's it's just the ultimate, ultimate experience we all go through. I'm really interested in what you said there about death and dying teaches you about what's important in life. What does that mean to you? What's important to you?

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Oh god, lots of things are important to me, but living a good life to me is about the dignity and respect, not just for other people, but also for myself. Um, and I think that caring for others is a big part of that, kindness to others is a big part of that. Um, that's not always possible, obviously. Sometimes you you meet challenging and difficult situations, and in that, in terms of leadership, you can have compassionate leadership, but sometimes you need lots of different other styles to your leadership because that can be used against you. Who has power, who doesn't have power. Uh, and what you learn very quickly in palliative care is at the end, at the very, very end, is uh what matters is the journey and how you get there, obviously. But key thing people say at the end is who they loved, who loved them, who cared about them, and how they feel now that they are transitioning on to that death at the end. So I think what matters to me and what I've learned in that journey is don't waste time on minutia and the small things if they are not going to move things forward. Um, try to focus on the bigger things that matter that take the journey where it's needing to go next. And that's not always obvious where it needs to go next. Often you would work with people through a plan of death. I know I'm using this experience, but probably because it's in my head. And um at right at the very end, they still might want to change their mind. And you need to be willing to pivot with people in that situation, and what the credit union has taught me is I I was very secure in a beginning, a middle, and an end in that journey, and the my role as a leader there. But now what I've realized that what's really important in this job is don't be frightened to fail. Definitely try and fail at times because it's the only way you're going to learn. And if you're going to fail, fail fast so you can learn and move forward. Um, and in the credit union, uh, what I've learned working with a team that I have right now is there was a real failure fear, like if they did it or didn't get it right, that that meant it was the end. And I was like, it's not the end, just dust yourself down, pick yourself up, and let's figure out what we can learn from this and move forward. So, yeah, I do bring things from that journey into this journey.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

What about just on that subject, especially around female leadership and the role that females play in leadership within credit unions? Would you say that we have the right blend of female leadership? Would you say we need more? Would you say we need different skills? What what's your viewpoint on um especially empowering women in the workplace?

SPEAKER_01 18:04

That's a tough one. I think it's a really hard journey in a male-dominated environment. And even though yourself, Gail and I are surrounded by women leaders, what I've learned in our recent shared journey is that some of us need to pause and think about um what have we learned from our personal conditioning and our social conditioning? And are we bringing the right skills to environments? And do we know how to fight and fight fair? And by that I'm not talking about physical fighting, obviously. What I'm talking about is not just responding to our conditioning, which often when we go into rooms we men is uh we fall into stereotypes. Um, and you'll know this, Gail, as I know this. Uh, what I see a lot of the time in our environment in the credit union sector is many, many men who are not as competent as the women leaders we work with every single day, but they seem to be in significant positions of power. And they may may or may not always be competent in those positions of power. And there is a real pushback from those men at times about don't ask questions, don't judge me, don't hold me to account, don't ask me to be responsible. And for many feminists, that's no different to what we see at home when the balance of power becomes who's doing their share. Um, but what I worry a little bit about in this sector is that we're listening to people without a critical analysis, and we need that critical analysis because we could be being led by the people who are not being completely honest or transparent, and that could be quite risky for us.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Do you mean potentially we could be listening to opinions rather than qualifications or evidence or results?

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Yeah. So in the sector previous to this, or even in my role, my previous role coming into this job was I was a strategic advisor in the Scottish Government. And um I think it's really important to have to do your due diligence, do your research, have your own evidence, form your opinions there. And when you get new evidence from other sources, take that on board and evaluate that, and that may also inform but change your opinion. What I see a lot of the time in this sector um is that doesn't happen. It is opinions, and and there is a culture of fear around challenging those opinions because they may then judge you or push you or discredit you or whatever. Um at 59, which I turned last week, I am absolutely clear that that won't stop me from doing the research, doing the due diligence, gathering the evidence and coming to my own opinions. And as an SMF holder, so senior management function holder uh under the senior management function regime, um, I think it's absolutely critical that we do that, and we do that in a shared way with our peers, which I know, Gail, you'll go you're going to maybe come on to this in terms of the radical group that is the coalition. Um, but I don't even think we should be radical. What we're doing should be normal.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Of course. And let's w we will come on to that. Just in terms of your leadership, Elaine, how would how would you describe it in three words? What would we

SPEAKER_01 22:00

your key what would be your key attributes or how would someone describe you yeah no I I I don't know how others would but I'll describe it for myself um I am my mother's daughter uh so I am being forthright I am being honest um and I am analytical and what about how would who how would uh what would your team say I think they would say that I am fair sometimes scary uh but they like well this is what they told me yesterday actually because we met were key performance stuff that we were trying to achieve fair I am uh a bit scary sometimes but they love working with me and what what else could we ask for?

SPEAKER_00 23:00

Absolutely absolutely talking about your credit union what how are your members doing just now we're we're going through this elongated cost of living crisis we're seeing oil prices and fuel prices going up food prices going up how are they coping are you are you receiving messaging from your own membership about this?

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Yeah so we engage really regularly with our own members and we're out and about and being a a national health service uh very proud national health service employee before I became uh the chief exec in national health service um I love gonna I love going out and about and I am out and about a lot in different hospitals and stalls and with different uh stakeholders but I love talking to our members they're they're very direct and it's uh it feels like coming home for me I feel very welcome in that environment and I think there's a lot of them are struggling. I think what makes it somewhat a bit better for National Health Service is we're an employee-based credit union so a lot of our uh members are working so they have a regular salary um and Scottish National Health Service which we are the official partner of the whole of NHS Scotland they are the best paid NHS staff in the UK so that doesn't mean they've got great wages what it means is they have they work with the trade unions as partners and they have got you know um a decent living wage what they're telling me right now is it's a struggle trying to make ends meet families are very different you've got a lot of blended families you've got a lot of single families you've got a lot of families where you know kids are living in one house one part of the week in another house another part of the week so you've got those multifaceted parts about families and families aren't just the children they're chosen families they they make up different blends and they're struggling and like most credit unions we have a particular cohort that are your lowest paid within the health service so your ancillary workers your um nursing auxiliaries your uh student nurses and there's 232 roles in the National Health Service so you've got all your uh people that are coming in straight free school at the moment and getting and doing you know new roles where they're developing um and they've not got they've not got huge salaries and they want to move forward in their lives so I think it's tough but we have been listening to them and responded to them. So some of the great things that we're doing with them right now is we have developed a shared risk framework for because we want every single member that comes through our doors to feel fairly treated equally treated and that they can get access to all of our services and that means even if they don't have a lot of money they can borrow. So we are developing something that's just now called a shared risk framework which I'm hoping to share with others once we've piloted it. And essentially credit unions and I know this because I was in a meeting last week with the Irish League are not lending is down across Europe. It's not just unique to us as National Health Service but what where we want to get to is back to we are not a bank and we're not trying to fill the space of banks and we don't want to and we don't want to be pushed by regulators into filling the gaps in high streets either that's not our job. What we want to do is enhance the financial wellness of every single member and that means when they come in that door they should be able to borrow from us even if they're on the lowest salary even if they've got debt we should be able to work with them and we shouldn't be judging them by credit scores. Credit unions were brilliant at that for the beginning and I think we've lost for way a wee bit. I think where we've gone to is because of regulation that we should only operate like a bank and we should only be doing this in certain ways. Well we want to push the envelope around affordability we want to look at what members are asking from us because what happens when we say no is just as in part important as what happens when we say yes. So what we're designing with our members right now in that shared risk framework is we don't want them falling through gaps. We don't want them going to online money lenders that are unethical and we don't want them paying huge interest rates to people um that don't care about their wellness or their their whole life financial journey because when you join our credit union like your own Gail you're a member for life from the cradle to the grave one of the other things I wanted to ask you about your own credit union Elaine is uh you have a program called Safe Harbour. Yep and I'm really interested to to ask you what that is and how does that help your members 84% of our membership are women and Safe Harbour was set up to make sure that we considered so the National Health Service in Scotland ran a pilot project about five and a half years ago called the Equally Safe Strategy and it was linked to coercive control and domestic abuse and they done the training with Scottish Women's Aid as we did as the National Health Service Credit Union and a charity called Surviving Economic Abuse and what we were trying to achieve because we knew through um conversations with our members that some of them had things going on in the background where other people were trying to take control of their money and what we wanted to do was develop a service that meant they were the only person that had control of their money and to do that we had to figure out how did we give them back control and how did we ensure nobody else could infiltrate that control. So we done the training specialist training which we do we revise every year now with our staff and we invited your own credit union and others to come along and participate in that and we set up safe harbour so that anybody doesn't matter if it if it is not a woman member but you know that coercive control is inextricably linked to domestic abuse. One in three people that are murdered in this country are women murdered by partners and men that they know and we were keen to make sure that we understood the journey before that happened and the journey before that happened is about control of that person's life whether it's financial or others and we understood we had a role to play in that and so we set up safe harbour which means any of our members can come on and just say those words or just put the international sign in our little um chat which is a protected chat and we know that we have to work with that person in a different way. That can be as simple as we don't send things to their home address we um don't send uh things that can allow another person to see that they have an account we uh make sure that they have a safe word with us when they're phoning they will tell us other things that would make their life safe and so we contact them in those types of ways or if they're down a hole or somebody's managed to get access they will give us some details around about that and we will put a stop on their account. I don't want to give all the details of that because I don't know where this is going. But uh what's really important about it is it is used by really well by women members but also the LGBTQA plus community where you've got those disparities of power around age and control in relationships as you have in heterosexual relationships. So it's been very successful for us. The FCA have invited us along to various things as it's a model of best practice we continue to develop it every single year but it started with our work with National Health Service Scotland who had an equally safe agenda for every member of staff.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

It's just a tremendous programme and having worked with the Scottish Women's Aid who are phenomenal every day in their in their behaviour in action I really commend you for what you've done there with that.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

Thank you and hopefully it it helps so many so many people in need well we do review it every year and um members I'm not exaggerating when I say this but members have said you know it has saved their lives and I don't underestimate that when they're saying that they feel that of course in terms of uh your credit union in the next few years what what's your hopes for it? Well we've got some big plans um and our plans are about growth but it's not about growth for growth's sake sure it's about that we have been approached uh in the development of our services in our partnership with uh serving national health service to work with them around financial wellness for all staff uh so we have some really exciting things that we're trying to progress however we don't want to do that in isolation without our community credit unions and Gail we would include first class in that um because we know they do some brilliant work as well and there's plenty of um business for all of us uh and with like minded people we would like to move forward as a business with our community credit unions and industrials like yourself uh who are like minded to develop um other services and in my head at the moment there's things that we're doing and we're exploring uh around um credit union service organisations around um how we support and help the development of communities because our members live in those communities as well uh so I think that's really really important and the overall picture in Scotland so I'll speak for Scotland because um we can although we serve the north of England our primary base is Scotland and we are hoping that as those community credit unions come together and I think through the work that we've done recently there is some really exciting opportunities for us all to work together to do some things. I hope that we are involved in that and I would want to be involved in that because it's not just about us. In isolation that doesn't work it has to be about all of us going forward and I know it's easy to say that but certainly through the work that we've done to redress the injustice of the family protection plan withdrawal we understand an injury to one is an injury to all of us and they will not always agree and sometimes we'll have disagreements fallouts you name it. However I think the one key thing about that group is what we realized and you see people being emboldened through it is that there's a lot more we could be doing together rather than this competition that seems to have developed which is not very Glasgow or Lanarkshire or anywhere because in Scotland it's not who we are I don't think and I think given we've got a commitment to cooperatives and developing them and growing them in mutuals we should be at the forefront of that our voices should be heard in that because there are I'll go back to those other people that have been leading this sector and taking us in a whole banking direction and telling us small community credit unions should just be usurped and and you know taken up by the bigger credit unions. We don't agree with that we don't believe in it we don't think it's right we absolutely believe we need to stop that right now and think about we're asset stripping those communities we're not building their capacity and actually that is not the way to develop the financial resilience of a community we know that through the research so why are we allowing it we need to stop it. So for for our our members or our listeners um last year our credit unions worked together um to develop a strategy to combat what was a a blunt withdrawal of a family protection plan that had impacted some of our members which had started off as a funeral policy and we we worked from there you you pick up the story there what happened next so a coalition was formed to to combat that yeah I think there's a bit before that though I think we were so so we had done a small piece of work with you guys at first class on other things to do with IT and I think you and I were both working in isolation and having occasional conversations about the the trauma of this this withdrawal we could see where it was going strategically you and I were both worried what does that mean for community credit unions and they're much smaller than we are and big credit unions of our sizes seemed to be just abandoning any responsibility that they had and um I think you and I had a conversation uh we were working separately and with the the actors involved the stakeholders involved in hitting brick walls you were part of a trade body who seemed to be leading for the uh the the one main actor and that was not going well and you invited me along to a meeting of that trade body although we weren't members and you invited others so you were instrumental in that gil bringing us into this meeting to say a dissenting voice if you like that no this is not okay it's not okay it shouldn't be happening there is an alternative what all the trade bodies seem to be doing not all so I now know it's not all but the one that procured them was leading the charge the their chief executive then became the director of this insurance company it was all very strange and bizarre behaviour and when I went to along to that meeting I don't I don't remember if you were chairman at Gil but you were certainly leading in it and um there was there was a a whole conversation and what I realized once you had invited me was there were clearly high levels of manipulation people who had power who were manipulating little credit unions who every single day are in those communities at the coal face fighting for members and dealing with really difficult vulnerable situations were um being blindsided and that had to that had to not be the case and I think what was helpful for the smaller credit unions is you and you can correct me if I'm wrong I think you'd been a dissenting voice before we got there and you brought us and others in there to say that's not okay look other people have a different opinion and I think that was an awakening for the ones on the call um and then we got together and said let's see how many people I think no there was a meeting in Glasgow on the 10th of October 2025 or 2024 was it 2025 yeah 2025 sorry if I've lost track of that we're losing months here oh my god 2025 and I wasn't even gonna go because I just felt this was absolutely reprehensible but from our meeting and I should say be we were so against it because at the heart of it elderly members were losing money and a policy that they thought they had in place to cover them if they died. Yeah good point they paid in for some for 25 years the least amount was 16 years. Yep and so this as far as they were concerned was the family funeral plan and as far as we were concerned as the leaders in those organizations it was a family funeral plan we believed what our members believed because that's what we'd been led to believe and I think um then uh the coalition well I went to that 10th of October meeting uh after the Manchester people um had sent you and I the PowerPoint that they had had from the day before there were three meetings Manchester Glasgow London and the Glasgow one was the middle one and the one they expected less hassle I think um and you said you need to come and I thought right uh we will come because I had read the PowerPoint presentation and we came along and it was just unbearable it was unbearable to sit there and be talked at and to listen to the lies and the manipulation that were being peddled in that room and I think we all asked really challenging questions at every table um National Health Service came along we were good trade union background and brought um a little piece of paper with our email address and put it on every table uh and did leave early while you guys stayed and tried to make sense but once we knew the Manchester meeting was exact going to be exactly was exactly the same in the sense that they were putting nothing on the table. They were actually their plan was to walk away and leave these people abandoned elderly vulnerable people who we now know from the coalition so we'll just talk coalition 50% of them over 70 with multifactorial vulnerabilities 23% of them over 80 and 1% over 90 who have no chance of ever getting that funeral cover or making that up again were just basically to be told your product's over and we thought that was reprehensible so I think what happened was a meeting of minds and from that point on we brought other people to the table uh you and I had a wee attempt before that with a smaller group that didn't seem to work and then the bigger group started to come together as people realised this can't happen.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

It can happen it can't so and then just to touch on it just one final kind of point on it we were able to campaign and we were able to get a meeting in London for that Scottish Parliament that's how we got to London. Scottish Parliament and then on to the Treasury and what's your hopes for that what's your hopes for for the pathway ahead for that I think it's probably one of the most significant things that's happened in this sector is in the last 30 years. Elaine sorry could I just ask you on that when you say it's one of the most significant taking aside the result or the outcome yeah do you mean the way that credit unions have cooperated? Do you mean that?

SPEAKER_01 43:23

Yes I think um not only the way credit unions have cooperated I think in in particular the people who have took an ethical and principled stand. And I would include both of us and all of the coalition members within that and others who support this from afar I would include ACE the trade body in that and I think there are more and more that are now coming to the surface and for a long time where we were being dragged was towards this corporate American Small bank model, uh, which I briefly touched on earlier, and I think where we are now is we have got an ethical and principle decision to make. Is that who we are? Or are we prepared to blow that up and reset? And I am absolutely prepared to blow that up and reset because we have much more to gain together than we have to be moving towards a corporate capitalist model of a diluted version of credit unions. By standing by our members. By standing by our members, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

And sorry, I interrupted you. What what is your hopes for it in terms of So sorry, I've never answered that wee bit.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

My hopes is that we from this particular situation is that the people who paid in faithfully for all of those years have some form of recompense that allows them to move towards a death with dignity or cover for their funeral, to have no uh not sitting worried sick, stressed out their head about how they're going to cover that, their families not worried sick about that, and that what we do as a credit union sector, or just the coalition, if we have to be the leaders in this, which we probably will, is we demonstrate what an ethical exit can look like, and how mitigating harm is actually our job, and that we can walk away from this, and our members feel we fought for them, we respect them, and that we will fight to make sure that they are protected to the best of our ability, and that they and their families are entitled to the same dignity as everybody else.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

Absolutely. And Elaine, in a few weeks' time, First Class are hosting an awards event in Glasgow on the back of our Money Made Human journey, and we will be recognising your efforts and the efforts of the coalition at that, and we look forward to sharing our lens of that with you in a few weeks.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

Well, I hope you sort of getting yourselves a pat in the back at that point as well. So we might need somebody to do it for you.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

No, not at all. It's it's it's about celebrating the cooperation and the resilience and standing up for others. That's really what the event's about. So we look forward to doing that with you. Just I have a I have a final question for you before our team come on and share some of the random questions we've collated this morning. You you mentioned that it was your birthday last week, you were 59 last week. What does the next decade look like for you? What's what's your not not just for your credit union, but what more do you want to achieve? And uh, you know, what what would what would good look like for you?

SPEAKER_01 47:04

I'm really simple when it comes to stuff like that. The next decade for me, I think, is about consolidating and um bringing together my life's work in some sort of written format. I would I think everybody's got a book in them. Okay. I think I would like to Is it called a girl for govern? It could be. Uh-huh. It could be that lass if you govern, it could be that. Um I would I I've been I would like to share some of that journey with young people um to give them hope that no matter what your school says, I was expelled from school at 17 and I was told that I wouldn't make anything of my life. I'd like to meet those people now and have a different conversation. But I think I'm excited about new learning, I'm excited about the next chapter, I'm excited about doing different things. I hope I have the luxury, although my daughters tell me no, uh, of being a grandparent at some point in my lifetime. Uh, that would be exciting for me. And uh simple things like spending time with people I love, um, walking, running. I'm a footballer, I like to play football. I hope I can play it for the next decade. Uh swimming in the sea, which I do every week. I just want simple things, lovely foods. I'd like to get back to cooking a wee bit and doing good things, growing things in my garden, which I've got a bit better at. That would be great for me. I would just love all of those things, and I hope I live and I live well and I'm and I've got good health.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

That sounds like a life, you know, well lived for sure. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

I hope so.

SPEAKER_00 48:46

And uh we've been joined by the team, Stacy and Diana from our headquarters, and we have we have some random questions for you. We do this at the end of every podcast, so I'll hand over to to Stacey and Diana.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

Brilliant, thank you, thanks, Gail. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_03 49:05

So the first question is: Does the NHS credit union use volunteers in any capacity?

SPEAKER_01 49:15

That's a great question. We do, but not not in a formal structured way, although some people would say your board of directors are volunteers. I think it's more than that. It's civic responsibility, and um yes, there's a voluntary capacity to it. So you could say that we're directors are operating in a voluntary capacity. We certainly uh don't pay them, we don't let them be out of pocket, they do get their expenses, uh, but we are very, very uh blessed to have brilliant directors. I'm sure first class are the same, and they do that without payment, out of civic responsibility. So I suppose they're a former volunteers. We also have students that come in regularly and do stuff, but it's not structured in the way that they've got a job role and blah blah blah. We work with them around what they might want to do, what they might want to learn. So we work with the local schools, we try and make it in our local area because that's easier for us, but we do have that for family members. So tomorrow, our chief finance officer's daughter will be in. She's um just finishing up in her sixth year and has gone on to be a doctor, so we feel she's in the family anyway. Uh, and my own daughters have volunteered, they've licked envelopes, they've done stuff, they've been growing up. But yeah, I think it's brilliant to have people who are willing to do that. But I'm also very I'm concerned that volunteers are treated appropriately and rewarded appropriately and valued. So we don't we don't make it a formal structure, but if you want to count it as a formal structure, then our board of directors do it out of civic responsibility.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

Brilliant. Thank you. Thank you. Um, next question is if the NHS Curate Union were a person, what kind of personality would it have? And what would be its favourite way to spend a Friday night? My goodness.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

That's a brilliant question. What kind of person would they be? That is a brilliant question. It would have to be somebody that is very principled but also funny, and that loves profanity. Because we love to speak.

SPEAKER_02 51:33

And uh what was the other bit of that there? And what would be the favourite way to spend a Friday night? I think dancing to the tunes in the kitchen.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

Because I do like to go to those afternoon events of being a couple now, I'm an old person, uh, and uh uh getting uh a few drinks in the afternoon does feel quite good because you know you've you can go to your bed early still. I'm sure the young people in our place would say, I but Elaine's old.

SPEAKER_03 52:07

Not at all. Brilliant. Um so the next question is what kind of impact does financial well-being have on healthcare workers' overall well-being?

SPEAKER_01 52:18

I think it's critical for any human being, but for healthcare it's really critical. If you think about COVID, they were going to work every day and putting their lives on the line where the rest is we're staying at home. We we weren't staying at home because we stood beside colleagues and friends, and we were essential workers uh through the whole of COVID. But if you think about financial wellness in that situation, it was critical that they had the money to get to work, that anything that they needed was covered. We brought out at that point our care for yourself loan so they could treat themselves. I know we couldn't treat ourselves too much because we couldn't get out the door. Uh, but I think it's absolutely critical to any human being. Think about when you go home at night and your bills are paid and you've maybe got a wee bit to do the things that you enjoy. I think every human being should have that. I don't think that should be a luxury, but there are people out there who are gone without dinner. Kids. Kids in our communities are gone without food some days. People are frightened because they can't pay their bills, they've not got enough money to put the heating on. Financial wellness is critical with everybody, and I think it's the difference between having dignity in society and society not valuing that enough. So I would say it should be for everybody, it shouldn't be a luxury, and for healthcare workers, given their if anything happened and we had another COVID or similar event, it it's absolutely it shouldn't, they should never be put in that position because they're always the people who are going to have to put their life in the line.

SPEAKER_02 53:48

Definitely, definitely. And next question is if you could give your younger self any advice, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 54:00

That's a really, really good one. It would be don't listen to people in school that tell you you're not going to amount to anything. Don't listen to people that tell you you need to pass all your exams and go to uni uh to be a chief exec. It's bullshit. Um, although I did go on go to uni and all that. But the point is I left school, I was expelled for school, and people told me I'd amount to nothing. So I would say to that young person, don't listen to these people, they don't get to define you. You get to define you. There's exciting next chapters, and be willing to take opportunities when they come, take risks, be willing to fail, and always be sporty because it'll make you strong as a woman in your whole life. That's what I'd say here. Definitely.

SPEAKER_03 54:51

And last question what movie or book would you recommend? That's a nice question.

SPEAKER_01 54:58

Right now? The one that I can have two separates? Could I have a different so the movie I would recognize that I would recommend right now is Palestine 36, done by a brilliant woman um director, uh, that demonstrates what happens in society if we allow depravity to take hold and continue and continue and continue, and nobody ever consequences it. Um uh take your hankies, but be prepared to take a stand as a principled person and have a view. Um because apartheid is reprehensible and it should be stopped at all costs. The book that I would recommend to all to younger women when they're at school, and the one that uh was really great for my own daughters was called Queen Bees and Wannabes. And if you have never read it, even as an adult, or if you've got daughters, definitely go and look at it. Um, if you watch the movie Mean Girls, you'll know why, because you need to help them survive this carnage, and then get them into poetry and different types of books, uh, and read as much as they can. Um, don't be frightened to read things, even if it's on a TikTok message or whatever, or whatever, and figure out who you are and what your values are. And if it's about your health, the Boston Women's Health Collective, Women's Bodies, um or you know, Women's Bodies, Women's Wisdom by Christine Northrop, because you need to keep yourself strong and you need your body to be strong and your mind to be strong. But there's thousands of books: Maya Angelou, June Jordan, um Alice Walker. You know, I could go on and on and on. I am an absolute bibliophile, I love to read, and it is the it's my superpower. Oh, fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 56:56

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 56:57

What a great way to end the conversation. Elaine, thanks so much for joining us on our podcast. I appreciate it. I think it's fair to say that we whilst we've done a lot of um complementary work together this year, we've also argued a lot. But but that's been in the interest of our members and and really trying to get an end goal and a great outcome for that. And I appreciate the journey with you and appreciate the insight into into you and your life, and thank you for sharing that with us. We really we appreciate that. And we wish you all the best in the coming weeks in terms of getting a resolution to the FPP withdrawal. Um, and we look forward to celebrating you as well. Um, so thank you for joining us, Elaine May. Thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 57:50

I'm very grateful and humbled that you wanted to talk to me.

SPEAKER_00 57:54

Not at all. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the Money Made Human podcast. We are grateful to spend time with you and hope you enjoyed it. If you want to join a credit union, choose us. With love, until the next time, first class credit union.